Authenticity Isn’t a Buzzword, It’s a Business Model

David Olajide (00:01)

But before we jump into today's episode, we want to share a short story. It's about a late night TV host, a pair of Snickers and the power of breaking the mold. Because sometimes what makes you different is exactly what makes you memorable. Take a listen.

Farzana Baduel (00:18)

He was just another guy in a suit. That's how the executives saw him.

Another Midwestern broadcaster with a gap in his teeth, a sharp tongue, and a love for old school radio. When NBC gave David Letterman his shot at late night in 1982, the network expected him to follow the script, cue cards, clean jokes, commercial breaks, and a whole lot of charm. A safe pair of hands and a very expensive time slot. But David had a different idea. He wanted his show to feel alive, a little awkward, even uncomfortable. He leaned into the weird, the underproduced, unpredictable. He once dropped watermelons off a five-story building just to see what would happen. He interviewed dogs. He let silences just hang. And most notably, he wore sneakers with his suits. Now, this wasn't a fashion statement. It wasn't even a rebellion.

Not exactly. It was comfort, sure, but it was also signal. Letterman knew that if he looked too polished, too packaged, and blended in with all the other suits, the sneakers were his wink to the audience. This isn't your dad's talk show. And it worked. Views noticed. They laughed because they weren't sure if they were supposed to or not. They stayed up late because for once, late night didn't feel like it was pretending to be prime time.

Letterman's offbeat authenticity carved out a new lane and eventually changed the tone of American comedy forever. The funny thing is, Letterman never talked about the sneakers. He never made it a gimmick. They were just him. And that's the whole point. He didn't try to be different. He was different. And the real magic came from owning it. Today on Stories and Strategies, what happens when you show up as the unpolished version of yourself? On purpose, when you write the pitch no one expects.

lead with the truth instead of the tagline and just wear the sneakers to a suit and tie world. Sometimes the smartest move is simply not to play by the dress code.

Hi, my name is Farzana Baduel.

Doug Downs (02:35)

And hello, my name is Doug Downs. Just before we get started for Farzana, we got a note. You know the transcripts and on our website, we upload the transcripts from every episode. We a comment on one of the transcripts. I don't know if they'd listen to the episode, but they commented on the transcript. It was the episode we did where we had rhetoric around whether PR is simply part of the marketing campaign. And I remember I won that argument. That's so crystal clear. This is from, their name is

Farzana Baduel (03:01)

cool that.

Doug Downs (03:03)

Barracks B A A R I X and as you listen to this I Think this is genuine. There's there's a chance that there's some sarcasm here. I don't know for sure. But anyway, here's what barracks wrote I don't believe I've read a single thing like that before so great to find someone with some original thoughts on this topic Really? Thank you for starting this up. So barracks. I see the world is as half the glass is half full. Thank you

Farzana Baduel (03:29)

Same,

same. think let's take that as a thank you. Wow.

Doug Downs (03:33)

And honestly those transcripts we sort of put them on the website thinking nobody's gonna read them that is just for I'm glad they did our guest this week is Lauren Pacell joining today from the Big Apple New York City. Hey Lauren

Lauren Passell (03:39)

Hi, I am so happy to be here, especially because I just enjoyed your episode of Bradley Davis so much, the founder of pod chaser. this show is your questions are truly the best, most thoughtful questions of, ⁓ of maybe any podcast I listened to. I appreciate you too so much. almost can't believe I'm here. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Doug Downs (04:12)

Now we're gonna do nothing but let you down.

Lauren Passell (04:14)

Also, I think that comment was completely genuine. ⁓ Clearly to me.

Doug Downs (04:20)

Yes, yes, maybe it's just me being defensive, right? Because I, you don't live with my kids. If you lived with my kids, you learned to build these defenses. How are things in the Big Apple? The Mr. Softy trucks are out and about, it's all hot and warm.

Lauren Passell (04:33)

It's a hundred zillion degrees. Yep. No relief. Yeah.

Doug Downs (04:37)

Right on. Lauren, you're the founder of Tink, a boutique podcast PR agency that's known for pitching with heart and not hacks. You've built a business that refuses to use AI. I love that. Never sends mass emails and treats every pitch like a personal letter. it must take so long to do all that. Everything is crafted with care and aimed straight at the producer's brain.

your approach, you approach podcast outreach the way a fan might by listening deeply, thinking differently, and leading with story. Amen, not sales.

Farzana Baduel (05:14)

Now, I wanted to start off, I'm obsessed with names, names of brands, why people choose them. Tell me the story behind Tink Media. I just want to know where it comes from, what the thought process is. I love it. And I just want to know how did it come to be the name of your agency?

Lauren Passell (05:35)

Well, I've always been a Disney fan. ⁓ actually auditioned to be Tinkerbell. It's named after Tinkerbell in Orlando. I love her. And it's funny, I wasn't sure what to call the company. I didn't really think this would be a real company. I was still applying to other jobs. would just, I almost called it Grandma Joyce after my grandma. Cause I was like, this isn't real.

Farzana Baduel (05:44)

could totally see that.

Lauren Passell (06:03)

⁓ but I caught a tank and now it just, you know how things make sense in retrospect. I'm like, it's so tank. She is a person to me, tank is, you know, this company is a person. honestly, I feel like a Tinkerbell is magical and, and, and a little bitchy and I saw all the founders should be. ⁓ I, I, I think I am both of those things also. So.

In retrospect, it all makes sense. I think that we are all magical. A lot of the people at Tink actually are Disney fans. That is not why I hired them. So it makes sense a lot.

Doug Downs (06:44)

That's amazing. That's, and, and I know, I know from the podcast industry, authenticity is one of your key pillars and you don't just talk it, you walk it. I've seen you do it. ⁓ but see, here's the thing. Authenticity is this thing we all sort of toss out there. I've even got this, this phrase that I use if I'm, if I'm giving a talk that once you can fake authenticity, everything's good. It's, it's, it's kind of like a key message these days. How do you. What separates real authenticity from performative branding in the eyes of gatekeepers like podcast hosts?

Lauren Passell (07:21)

I became a fan first. I was working in book publishing when I started my newsletter, Podcast the Newsletter. I had a podcast called Podcast Podcast. It was a podcast review podcast. This all comes from a place of authenticity. I can't fake that. You can't fake it, right? It can't be manufactured. I think I really didn't even think I, I mean, I wasn't even in PR.

I loved the medium of audio, but I didn't know how to make audio, but I was in media and I figured out, you know, I actually, I was working at the book publishing house. I wasn't on the PR team. The PR team would come up to me and say, Lauren, know, podcasts, can you pitch David Sedaris to get on some shows to talk about his new book? And I was doing it at the publishing house just because I understood podcasts. So.

That's really how Tink started. was actually just for authors at first to pitch authors to get on podcasts. So it really, really comes from this place of me just being such a listener, such a fan. ⁓ You know, I think the lesson is if you can make sure it's something you genuinely like because it'll just be so obvious if you don't, you know? And like, I think the authenticity just goes almost so far back that you can't, we couldn't all of a sudden one day be like, okay, how are we gonna be authentic? It starts before.

We all got here. It starts as we were all listeners. Some of us are producers. A lot of the people at the Tink team have podcast newsletters, you know. And the other thing is our company does a lot of things that are truly out of the love that we don't make money for. They're not for our bottom line. They might, maybe they end up helping our bottom line. But we have this thing called audio delicacies where at the end of the year we reach out to audio makers and ask them to give their favorite podcast of the year. We make this big list.

of the best things that the things that aren't making the other lists out there, you know, at the time, the New York Times list, we have a podcast called Feed the Q where we're feeding your cue with things that we love. We have a recommendation hotline. We ⁓ had this a month called Adopt a Listener where we were obsessed with getting adopting non listeners and turning them into podcast listeners. So we're constantly like celebrating the medium just like because we want to and everyone's in because they really want to.

Farzana Baduel (09:43)

I just love that, you know? So spending 15 years in PR and all we do is sort of pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch. And then all of a sudden about two years ago, I started doing podcasts. And so all of a sudden I was on the other side where I was being pitched to. And then, and that's like this massive aha moment. You're like, my God, how annoying are these pitches? These pitches that I've been writing for the last 15 years, how annoying am I? And it's really extraordinary because it really builds empathy.

which then you can sort of translate into pitching and, know, and you've called your pitches, your sort of your love letters. And I just, I love that. And I wanted to just learn from you, know, Lauren, about what makes a great pitch, because a lot of PRs like myself, all of a sudden are finding themselves pitching not only to sort of mainstream media, but also to, to podcasts. And we're kind of using the old techniques of how we pitch to mainstream media. And all we're doing is just not adapting it. So wanted to learn from you, how do you uniquely approach them? Does it have to always just be on email? What makes it a love letter? Is it rooted just in passion and authenticity and you just can't fake it? ⁓ Just want to learn from you, Lauren.

Lauren Passell (10:59)

Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I go to book publishing houses still and tell them how to do this better. Because I know I'm still in that world a little bit. And I'm trying to like basically break their brains because they're so used to doing ⁓ PDFs. I'm like, no PDFs. You know, they're so used to doing things a very traditional way. And I'm like, the less formal for me, this is what works for us. And we have a

really good rate of doing this, the less formal the better. You know, it's funny because we do not use AI. ⁓ We actually have a ⁓ thing on our website that says like human powered and I can't tell you how many people comment on it. And when I told you that, both of you, I think you were kind of shocked and I was unprepared for how shocking that was to you. Can you tell me, first of all, want to hear, am I allowed to ask you?

Am I making a mistake and why did that shock you so much? was unprepared for this response.

Farzana Baduel (12:00)

I think it's just, I mean, in the PR world that I'm in, everyone is talking about AI, everyone is talking about AI adoption. And it's not necessarily a question of do I use it or do I not? It's a question of how do we use it? And it's almost like we've lost the art of critical thinking, that we just take whatever wave is coming our way and just learn how to ride it better rather than just get out of the sea. And so what was extraordinary about when I went on your website and then I learned that you don't... harness sort of AI is I actually thought to myself, why did I never think about it? mean, whether or not I choose to use it or not. But the fact is that adoption without critical is sort of examining. And then I came across some research afterwards that shows actually how it really damages critical thinking, that when you use AI and how the copy starts, you know, sort of becoming less engaging and ⁓ so forth. I was shocked, Lauren, because you're the first person that has said that to me.

Especially an agency owner. So I just thought that, I think that just shows how rooted you are in yourself and not going with everybody else and you're following your own path. And I find that really admiring. ⁓ But I'd love to know how you feel about it. Do you feel worried that will you be left behind? Or do you feel that you may change your mind? Or do you feel actually this is the right way? And also how do you sell it to your team?

Your team go and have a drink with other PRs and they're like, yeah, I did that blog in like two seconds. you know, and they're sort of like, you know, working away. it easy to sell that into your culture that that's the right thing to do?

Lauren Passell (13:42)

Yeah, I mean, it is funny Farzana, you said something interesting earlier about you are in the unique position, both you and Doug getting pitch letters. And I'm sure you can see, you can tell. yeah. So I am not nervous at all. I mean, we can revisit this if someday. And I'm not totally, I used it once to write an uncomfortable letter to a client. So I'm not saying I won't use it for anything. ⁓

Farzana Baduel (13:52)

yeah.

Lauren Passell (14:08)

But our pitching process and that kind of stuff, we're not touching it. But I'm not nervous. It was not difficult to talk to the team about it. We did have a conversation about it though. It was a real, I am very with my team. Like, I'm like, what do you all think? I don't know. I don't know anything. Well, I don't have all the answers. I hired you because you're smart. What do you think? Also, they're all younger than me. They're better than me in so many ways.

So we did have a good conversation about it, but before we even had that conversation, we allow, we put in our proposals, we map out how many pitches are gonna be going out and how much ⁓ time, exactly the amount of time to spend on each proposal. So each letter should take 20 minutes. That's what I tell them. And I say, if it takes you less than 20 minutes to write a letter, you're not winning anything, we're losing. So don't...

That to me should be a huge relief that you have 20 minutes because you should listen to the podcast. You should like do a little bit of research. You should write ⁓ from your heart and what you think and write like a producer. So that takes time. you're, if you're taking less than that's why we, you know, we don't do blasts. So we were already kind of doing that. Like we were already like really, really, I was like, take the 20 minutes. You're allowed. It's okay. You know, we have a, we bake that in for you.

It's coming from a really genuine place.

Doug Downs (15:38)

And now, I mean, your words off the top about the podcast, mean so much more. So thank you for that. Cause you're, being authentic and real about that. ⁓ that being said, can I ask you a really stinky question here? the recipe I'm getting from you for authenticity is believe in it. That it's gotta, if you don't like it, if you don't enjoy it, you can't do it. Cause you can't fake it. That's, that's the recipe for being real as well as be willing to be unreasonable, be willing to make people uncomfortable. Right. And I really like all that.

That being said.

Lauren Passell (16:09)

If you believe in fairies clap or wasn't that Peter Pan Tinkerbell?

Doug Downs (16:12)

that if you're, but see you're the boss here. So it's real easy for you to say that the reality of any employee who reports to a boss is that their job is to make the boss happy. Not to just be themselves. They have to meet KPIs. They have to prove ROI. So the boss can sit atop their Everest and say, keep it real people. The employees have to keep it flowing to what the boss actually wants. How do you create a culture that allows people to be themselves when the reality is the only one who can be themselves is you?

Lauren Passell (16:54)

I mean, that's a really hard question. I think about it a lot because I don't know how these people came into my life. You know, I hired them in very ⁓ not recommended random ways. So I think, you know, I didn't hire PR or marketing people. None of them were including me because I thought I can teach you PR marketing. I learned it.

Doug Downs (16:57)

Stinky right stinky.

Lauren Passell (17:24)

I can't teach you how to love podcasts. I can't teach you to be a listener. I need you to be a listener first. And that's when I go to the book publishing houses, I'm like, you need to listen. And they're like, really? no. And I'm like, sorry, bad news. You have to listen to podcasts a little bit. You do. So they're listeners. ⁓ So coming in, ⁓ you know, right off the bat, I know that they understand podcasts.

I think one thing that I do is I trust them and I let them soar in their own direction. And also they like each other so they collaborate. think those things, I can't really take credit for that. But I do, I'm not like type A managing everything that they do. I'm trying to ask them questions as much as they're asking me questions.

⁓ So I kind of feel like letting them figure things out in the best way, in their own way of doing it and like trusting that they're going to do it. Like letting go of a lot of stuff.

Farzana Baduel (18:34)

And so Lauren, wanted to ask PR is all about relationships and it should be rooted in empathy, active listening, you know, all these skills that we just inherently know. But why is it that as PRs, we have a reputation, say with journalists, of just spamming them, of not really listening, not really kind of knowing who they're talking to. And you mentioned earlier that, you know, your team members, take 20 minutes, you know, to draft.

an email that's very bespoke to whoever they're sending, but that's not really the norm. A lot of ⁓ agencies, do the exact same pitch ⁓ and they just change the name. Occasionally what they do is they just put one sentence on top which says, ⁓ I listened to your podcast or ⁓ I read this article X. That feels like it is generic with just a poor attempt of putting

a little dollop of authenticity on top, which doesn't really work. ⁓ Cause you know, they kind of top and tail it sometimes ⁓ with something that's personal, because they've read, let me just tick the box. it feels, know, as obviously now I'm getting pictures, it feels formulaic and therefore fake and then disingenuous. And what I love about Tink, about your agency, the focus is high conversion. So it's not about activity and we send out, you know,

thousands of emails and just basically ruining producers lives by just sending them emails that are disheartening. That's really interesting what you're doing because I think it's so true to PR principles, but yet so rare. I think that's perhaps why you've got the high conversions that you have.

Lauren Passell (20:32)

Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up because that's a crucial part of what we're doing. They're spending 20 minutes on a letter. They're not sending out a hundred letters. We are going so slowly because we're listeners, because fans, we know the medium so well. We know what's going to work. We know who's going to say yes. So we're not sending to someone that we don't really believe is going to work. We're not sending someone an idea that we don't believe in.

So there's not that many ideas. there aren't too many of them. I had someone on my team just came to me. had a mini campaign. We got 100 % something moving forward. 100%. There weren't that many. I want to say six to eight letters.

Doug Downs (21:21)

And you scored on all six. ⁓

Lauren Passell (21:23)

Mm-hmm. Something happened with that.

It's unheard of. And that's extreme and probably scary to some people, but if you could just go a little bit more in that direction, it's not about the quantity of these. I don't know how to explain that I don't have faith in that method.

Farzana Baduel (21:40)

So Lauren, thank you so much for your time. I do have a question for you that's been left by our previous guest, Emma Wolcott. Are you ready?

Lauren Passell (21:51)

I am so ready.

Emma Woollcott (21:53)

I'm a big fan of learning from failure. We're all works in progress and as Fleabag said, pencils have rubbers on them because humans make mistakes. I'd like your next guest to say what their biggest communication failure was and what they learned from it.

Lauren Passell (22:08)

I love this person. Okay. Can I give you a choose your own adventure? Because I have three possible and you can choose. I mean, I've made a lot of mistakes. ⁓ Tons and tons and tons. I have like the very funny, very specific funny mistake that I can tell you about. The more like existential, like ongoing, like never ending problem that I'm having, or actually recently asked, someone on my team, one of my biggest mistakes was, and they gave me an A.

Doug Downs (22:41)

Sorry, I'll step in I'd love to hear that one because that's real authentic feedback

Lauren Passell (22:47)

Okay. Do want me to read it to you?

Doug Downs (22:52)

Is this one of these anonymous 360 feedback things or were they not anonymous?

Lauren Passell (22:58)

You often rush to protect the people you work with and care about. I do this too. And the way this comes across communication wise is jumping in to help when often someone just needs support and to be told, you got this and trust that if they need help, they'll ask for it. And it's something we're constantly working on because it's part of who we are as people. and I both are the kind of people who will jump in whenever and do what needs to be done.

And are bad at delegating. But what doing that effectively communicates to others is that we don't trust them to be able to do their jobs. I'm being very introspective here about this too and realizing this about myself as well.

Doug Downs (23:38)

Yeah, that's ⁓ and if you're not worried about your leadership, you're not a good leader. You really should be.

Lauren Passell (23:45)

Yeah, then I'm not worried anymore because that means I'm a great leader.

Doug Downs (23:48)

See now I defeated the whole purpose because I just said you should be worried No, no return Lauren, ⁓ what question would you like to leave behind for our next guest?

Lauren Passell (23:52)

Well, I would like, this is kind of a selfish one. I would like to hear the most creative use of AI your next guest has used because I'm wondering what I'm missing now about.

Doug Downs (24:14)

Wow, I must admit I have taken, so we've tried different AI tools. ⁓ Chat GPT, it's like I drink Coke, know, I'm not very creative that way. Chat GPT is the one, I am getting into creating, you can create a specific GPT that uses certain keywords, a specific kind of language, and I really think some of the stuff we're starting to turn out, it's all human vetted, but.

Some of the stuff we're starting to turn out is sounding on page. That's about as creative as I've gotten. Biggest failure, I'll just be totally candid. The episode art that we've been trying to create for the podcast, because we play with AI on it. We're trying to get this consistent look. And yeah, it's just, it's in progress.

Lauren Passell (25:07)

Sorry, I just have to say the artwork you have now, I mean, this is hard and this is a compliment also. It does not communicate how good this show is, but I don't know how to solve that problem. Bang. 

Doug Downs (25:18)

And you know what, it's an episode about being real, and I think that is completely real and right.

Farzana Baduel (25:26)

I would say, ⁓ again, with this podcast, I never worked with a professional before like Doug, who is professional with podcast production. go on. It was always like me and other people, and we were slightly blind, eating the blind. None of us were really sort of podcasters or understood anything and actually never took the effort to actually learn about the art. Doug opened up this incredible world of podcasting, which I find is really fascinating.

What I learned from Doug, which was a communication mistake when I sort of made as a podcaster before co-hosting with Doug, was I was so focused on who the person I should be interviewing that I totally forgot about the topic and the insight and just not having empathy for the audience that actually they are time poor, they are busy. They often have a growth mindset if they're tuning into industry podcasts and actually

you know, give them a gift, give them, you know, find the insight, the topic. It's less about, this person works in this company and has won that award and wow, you know, it's more like it doesn't matter who it is. It's actually the gift of insight and that doesn't come with a job title. That doesn't come with, you know, accolades or industry awards. That just comes with active listening and really unearthing gems and the insight. I think the best podcasters are podcasters that have a very generous spirit that they want to give to their audience and they also want to make room and create the right environment for the guest, for them to thrive and pass on their gems of wisdom.

Lauren Passell (27:07)

That's so good. I don't think a lot of podcasters are thinking that way. That's why this show is so good.

Doug Downs (27:13)

Mmm, awesome. Lauren, amazing to spend time with you. I've seen you at a few conferences, obviously read your newsletter faithfully, but to get a chance to spend some time with you, that's a real treat. Thanks for your time.

Lauren Passell (27:25)

Thank you for having me. This was a great.

Farzana Baduel (27:27)

Thank you.

Here are the top three things we got today from Lauren Passell. Number one, start as a fan. Lauren's authenticity stems from a genuine love for podcasts. She listens first and then she builds from that passion. Number two, human over hustle. Every pitch at Tink is slow, personal and handcrafted. No AI, no mass emails, no shortcuts. Number three,

Lead with trust. Authenticity also means trusting your team to work their own way, even if it looks different from yours.

Doug Downs (28:08)

I'm not sure I could wean myself off of generative AI at this point.

Farzana Baduel (28:13)

I'm kind of like attached to the hip with Chat GPT.

Doug Downs (28:17)

kind of am, and I think I'm creative by the way that I direct it, but Lauren's onto something. Everybody loves homemade apple pie, right? Fresh organic ingredients.

Farzana Baduel (28:27)

They do. there is a danger of relying overtly on chat GBT because actually it could just stop your critical thinking. And it does feel impersonal. Like when I get emails and I know it's sort of LLM generated, especially those hyphens, those long hyphens, I don't know what they're called, ⁓ but they're just like a dead giveaway. And it just, feels like you're being a bit duped actually. I sort of, don't like it.

Doug Downs (28:51)

Yep. Lauren puts the tink in think. If you'd like to send a message to our guest, Lauren Tassel, we've got her contact information in the show notes. Stories and Strategies is a co-production of Curzon Public Relations, JGR Communications, and Stories and Strategies podcast. If you liked this episode, just scroll to the top and leave us a five-star rating. Maybe cobble out a little review. Thank you to our producers, David Olajide and Emily Page. Lastly, do us a favor forward this episode to one friend. Thanks for listening.