Cancelled. Convicted. Came Back: Andy Coulson’s Story

Emily Page (00:01):

You may know her as the Virgin Queen, the ruler who presided over one of the most glorious periods in English history. But Elizabeth I early in her reign was not the beloved monarch we think of today. This is a story about how a queen once doubted by many turned her reputation around and left a legacy that still resonates in history even in the age of cancel culture.

Doug Downs (00:39):

When Elizabeth the first ascended to the throne in 1558, she inherited a kingdom in turmoil. Her legitimacy was questioned from the start, born to King Henry VIII and Ann Berlin. She was the daughter of a controversial marriage, one that had led to the tumultuous break with Rome and the execution of her mother to many. Her position was precarious at best, and just like today's cancel culture where public figures can be swiftly condemned or ostracized, Elizabeth faced her own version of public rejection, seen as too much of a symbol of chaos in a religious division. For years, Elizabeth fought against the canceling forces of her time, conspiracies, political rivals, and the constant threat of foreign invasion. Her court was full of power struggles and tensions over religion with Catholics and Protestants, both trying to sway her decisions and discredit her. Just as someone today might face the backlash of a social media mob or an unforgiving press,

(01:42):

Elizabeth was constantly in the crosshairs of both political and religious factions who sought to undermine her rule at every turn. Yet, despite the relentless attacks, she didn't back down, nor did she let the critics define her. Her moment of redemption came in 1588 when the Spanish or ma the might of Catholic Europe set sail to invade England. This was no different than the modern comeback story we see when an individual faces near total cancellation only to rise above it. Elizabeth had the opportunity to either collapse under the pressure or demonstrate the strength of her leadership in a stunning naval victory, the English fleet defeated the armada sending shock waves through Europe and cementing Elizabeth's place as a powerful and unshakable monarch. Justice. Figures today might try to regain trust after a public scandal. Elizabeth, through her resilience and strategic action, had not only preserved her throne, but also emerged as a hero of the people.

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The queen who had once been doubted, whose reign had been on the brink of collapse, was now regarded as a national savior in this age of cancel culture. Elizabeth's story reminds us that while the tides of public opinion can turn swiftly, there's always room for a comeback if the right steps are taken, whether it's a courageous act, a strategic silence, or even just waiting for the storm to pass today on stories and strategies facing the armada and navigating the storm of reputational recovery. Just like Elizabeth, anyone can weather the backlash and emerge stronger than before. My name is Doug Downs

Farzana Baduel (03:40):

And my name is Farzana Baduel. Our guest this week is Andy Coulson, joining today from London. Hi Andy.

Andy Coulson (03:48):

Hello. I'm not actually in London today. I'm working, I'm working from home, Dan on the Kent coast. So as we sit I'm looking out over a pretty grey but still rather wonderful English channel. Nice.

Farzana Baduel (04:01):

And for our American listeners and Canadian listeners and those around the world, how far is that from London?

Andy Coulson (04:07):

I'm an hour's train ride away. So not far. Not far.

Farzana Baduel (04:11):

Brilliant. Now Andy, you are a former editor of News of the World and a seasoned crisis communications expert. You are now the founder of Colton Partners offering strategic advice to individuals and organizations on managing reputational recovery and navigating the challenges of public scrutiny.

Doug Downs (04:30):

Andy, we hear this term cancel culture all the time. I'd say it's pretty ubiquitous, but you've definitely got some personal experience with it for me. Could you just share your story briefly, what you experienced and where you're at today?

Andy Coulson (04:45):

Sure. And thanks for having me on guys. It's good to be with you. So I'm a journalist by trade. I went to work when I was 18 on my local paper, then follow the fairly well warm path to national papers here in the uk. Worked on the sun as a reporter, as a showbiz reporter actually for many years. Then became an exec, worked my way up to being the editor of the News of the World, which at that time was the biggest selling Sunday newspaper in the world. Was the editor there for four years. Pretty successful actually until I wasn't. Won a lot of awards, sold a lot of papers, and then one of my reporters was arrested, jailed, in fact for breaking the law for intercepting people's communications phone messages. And I resigned. I wasn't asked to, but I felt it was the right thing to do.

(05:30):

I found it impossible really to be in that job given what had happened. So left the newspapers, not quite sure what I was going to do next. And then I was offered a job by the Conservative party here in the UK. In fact, the original job was to be the chief exec of the Conservative Party, which I didn't much fancy. I was more interested in the comms side as I've always been. And as a result, I became the director of communications and planning for David Cameron, who at that stage was in opposition. And so I worked with him for three years up and down the sort of election hill. Not quite sure when that general election would come, but it did come. And when it did, we managed to get over the line into a coalition government, but over the line and into Downing Street where I worked for another year. But then those newspaper issues that I mentioned came back perhaps partly as a result of my being in Downing Street. And I have found myself resigning for a second time. I'm a resigning recidivist.

(06:33):

And the reason that time really was much the same, I just felt I couldn't do my job. Actually, what I said at the time was when a spokesman needs a spokesman, it is a good sign that you should probably move on. And so that's what I did. But those issues sort of pursued me. And about six months later, that resulted in it becoming a very high profile scandal. And I spent the next five years dealing with three, there are a fair number of legal issues, but in essence three very significant issues. I succeeded in two, I fouled in one, and that resulted in my going to prison for just under five months, including a couple of months in a high security prison. Belmarsh came out of my troubles, I suppose, in 2015. And then I had a choice. I could either, and it's interesting perhaps in the context of this conversation about cancellation, I had I a choice of whether to become even more notorious, get out in the TV studios, start kicking some shins, telling my stories, write a book, all that stuff, or follow what was always my original plan, which to see if I could set up a business and see if I could put all of my experience.

(07:50):

And obviously I had a whole load of new experience by that stage and put it to work on behalf of my clients and also, which is the reason why I took that second route for myself because, and I think this is crucial when you're looking at cancellation, you have really got to work out. It's actually an opportunity to work out who you are, what you're about, what it's you want to do with your life. And I was very clear that I did not want to be that guy sat on a breakfast tv, studio sofa, trying to be relevant and trying to kick a few shins along the way. It's just not who I am. It's never who I was. And so although it's been perhaps a slower path to follow, if you like, in some ways it's definitely been the most rewarding one.

Farzana Baduel (08:40):

It's a fascinating journey that you've had, Andy, and that's probably why you're so good at what you do. I mean, I listen to your podcast crisis, what Crisis and what strikes me is just the empathy that you have when you have your guests because you've, of course, unlike many of us other sort of crisis practitioners, we haven't been through what it feels like to be in the eye of the storm. And my God, have you been through it? And so that empathy that you have, that emotional intelligence that you have, because clients aren't just looking for a prescriptive response to the crisis, they're also looking for, I imagine understanding and a feeling of safety from somebody who's been there, done that.

Andy Coulson (09:21):

Well, that's very kind. I mean, I don't think my experiences are unique. And funnily enough, doing the podcast has shown me that actually they're that serious either. In some ways this might sound a ridiculous thing to say when you're sort of removed and dismantled for five years as I was. But honestly, I've now chatted to over a hundred people who've been in crisis, involved in crisis, mostly personal. And honestly, I don't think there are any that I would say have had an easier time than me. All of them are more difficult. And that's another learning for me is it's all perspective. But yeah, I suppose I think as a result of my experiences, I get to the point of trust pretty quickly with my clients because I think they all know my background. Perhaps we'll get onto that as to the sort of impossibility of getting out from when you've been involved in a public scandal these days.

(10:23):

And then there are reasons for that perhaps that we can chat about. So my clients come into the room knowing full well who I am and what I've been through. And so we get to that point of trust pretty quickly. And I think that has been useful. I think that has been valuable and it's actually the reason why I do what I do. And I think we all do it in different ways than people, but when you're sat with someone in a professional context and they are telling you their story and asking you for your advice in it, I think that's a very privileged position and this work Absolutely. That I love.

Doug Downs (10:57):

Let me follow up on that then. How do you, let's do it right now. How do you get out from under a cancellation? How do you make that comeback? And let me ask, is it different for different people and even put forward, is it different for someone in the UK as opposed to Americans? Are they different cultures that come back in different ways?

Andy Coulson (11:18):

I think there is a difference. I sort of hesitate slightly to answer because although I've worked in the US over the years, I've never lived there. And so I wouldn't claim to be an expert. But I think that the American environment is slightly more forgiving. I think that Americans enjoy the comeback perhaps a bit more than we do here in the uk. You've got a great shining example of that right now with Donald Trump.

Doug Downs (11:45):

So maybe a bit too much at times, is that what we're saying?

Andy Coulson (11:48):

Yeah. Well maybe that's a subject for a different podcast, I dunno. But I think it's got some irony for me of course, because I was a British newspaper man, so I'm the last person to complain about it. And my newspaper career ended very badly. And I've been in the media here a fair bit, having lumps kicked out, but I'm not going to moan about that. I think that'd be grossly hypocritical. And I'm also, despite all that, I remain, I love the British media. I love its skepticism, I love its cynicism. Thank God for it, particularly in the political context. It's critical part of our life here in the uk. But I do think we're more judgmental. I do think the kind of the battle to keep yourself or to at least get yourself into the grey rather than being in the black or the white, which is where particularly if you spend your time on social media, that's where you're going to be. You're going to be one or other. None of us are. I've yet to meet anyone who's either wholly in the black or wholly in the white. Most people are somewhere in the grey, some perhaps a little bit darker grey.

(12:50):

And so I think here that's a bit tougher. But there's another reason why it's difficult to get out from under more difficult these days that I don't think has got anything to do with geography and I think is equally relevant in the US as it is in the uk. And that's just technology. When I was a reporter and I wanted to write a story about someone, then a messenger would be sent down to the library, a file of cuttings would be brought up. I would then rifle through those cuttings and I'd make a judgment on what I wanted to use, what I didn't want to use, what was relevant and what wasn't. Quite often by the way, a cutting would go missing. And so you'd miss a large part of someone's history these days. Not only is it readily available to you, instantly available to you, it's served up as though it happened yesterday.

(13:31):

And again, not a complaint, but the algorithm that we all now share our lives with is serving this stuff up as though it's a newspaper that gets posted through a door every morning, even though it happened in 2014. And I speak from personal experience. So that takes you to two things for me. It takes you to don't try and approach your problems through the door of reinvention, right? Do not think that you can just somehow hide from the mistakes you've made. And in my case, by the way, I made plenty, don't think I broke the law, but I made plenty of mistakes. Don't try and hide those. Don't try and deny them, don't try and reinvent. I am a firm believer both from a strategic point of view and for what it's worth, from a philosophical point of view, that you've got to carry your mistakes with you because that's all part and parcel of being a human being. I also think it's strategically sensible because you behave in that way. I think you've got a much better chance of getting listened to and I think you'll be happier doing it.

Farzana Baduel (14:33):

You said something that's really interesting because back in the day if there was a controversy, it'd be printed in the newspaper and then the next day it'll be used for fish and chips wrapping or whatever. And then now of course you could just Google someone, but actually it's become even easier than that. You've got chat bt, so they could then go and extract all the information from sort of a whole plethora of websites and sources to sort of get some information. Of course there's elements of disinformation and misinformation that you have to navigate, but on the other hand, is it easier for people to rehabilitate their reputation because actually the attention span isn't what it was, the fact that there's so much information that's coming through and back in the day, I mean I remember with the politician, John Perfume and after he had his sort of controversy, he ended up for years in charity and now you see politicians having all sorts of scandals and the next day it's all forgotten. So do you think the news cycle has changed that things aren't sticky anymore, that actually we've got such a tsunami of information and we just don't have that attention to think and also perhaps our recall is impaired or maybe we just don't care anymore?

Andy Coulson (15:45):

I think that's absolutely the case. The point about there being an attention deficit is very important in the context of reputation and cancellation. And it is to some extent or another a positive, but it kind of depends what the nature of the scandal is and the nature of the difficulty or the nature of the cancellation. I think in a political context, I think you are right, memory is are shorter. It is therefore easier to punch through potentially, but equally, the judgment comes much quicker than it did before. So it it's a balance, isn't it? And so you've seen careers ended here. There's an MP here who we've got in a moment of madness hit out on someone in the street, he's done finished. That is all over 10 years ago. That would've been a much slower process, I think. And who knows, maybe he would've been able to find a way to kind manage that.

(16:41):

He's done actually I think as an MP and he's acknowledged that himself. So I think it kind of depends in the corporate context, I think memories are a bit longer, actually. I think it's a dangerous presumption to make when you are in an organizational crisis or your organization is in a crisis, to think that you can keep your head down, attention will move elsewhere and people will move on. I think that's a dangerous game to play. I'm sure there are examples where you've been able to pull that off. That's not really my approach. My approach is always lean into it, confront it, and then be authentic and consistent. And consistency is so important in trying to address it.

Doug Downs (17:25):

For me, it feels like the battleground has shifted to the beginning of the crisis. I'll give you an example. President Trump gives a state of the union speech. I go on X or Twitter and I'm filled with commentators trying to dictate the narrative. To me. It's good, it's bad. They're trying to set the narrative because that's where the stickiness happens. Do you detect the same thing?

Andy Coulson (17:48):

Yes. I think there's some truth to that. I think we've got to be careful about using politics as some kind of laboratory for crisis management, right? Because I think it sits more now than ever separately. I do not want to, and let's not get into personal politics here, but Donald Trump is not a mentor in my life, I can tell you. But he's had tremendous success. Tremendous success is undeniable success in the way that he has handled himself and handled his, whether you agree with him or not, whether you agree with the methods that he deploys, it has undeniably been successful. It's not a model for my life and I suspect it's not a model for a lot of other people's lives. And then if you put it in the corporate context, really we were going to start encouraging people to run their businesses. And the way that Donald Trump has run his political campaigning, interesting. And in fact, that is exactly the debate that is happening right now, right? Because of course with his arrival you saw a whole army of businesses changing strategic decision, changing strategic direction overnight. Let's see how that plays out. Let's see how that plays out. Because if you want to tie yourself so inextricably to politics or to a political leader, good luck with that. If you want to stay in business for the next 20, 30 years, you want to stay in business for the next 10 years.

Farzana Baduel (19:09):

Yeah, I guess it's about the short-term versus long-term. You touched upon something really interesting about polarizing political extremes. And corporates are now slightly forced to take positions or that they find themselves sort of feeling as if they, and before it used to always be this sort of thing whereby corporates would be like, we're not getting involved. And then all of a sudden with the Black Lives Matter, you started seeing corporates edge into these culture walls. And then now with Trump, it's full on which side are you on? But I wanted to talk a little bit about polarization in terms of you now have a split with stakeholders. So for instance, if you take threat history, it's quite black and white. Thou shalt not kill somebody, kills someone. That's a pretty bad thing. But then you have the killing of Brian Thompson and then you have all of a sudden you see these people celebrating Luigi Mangione. And even in London there was this graffiti all over sort of East London where they started doing sort an ode to him almost with a sort of halo on his head. And so we're now entering this world where actually it just feels a little bit, so how do you advise your clients when the basics of binary good and bad, it's just not playing out anymore.

Andy Coulson (20:28):

I think if you try and dictate your strategy entirely by the environment, you will get called out because the environment as you've just demonstrated changes so quickly. You just got to work out who you are, what your purpose is, why are we here, what is it that we do? And then for me, in many, it's all about trust. And for me, trust actually is a pretty straightforward exercise. Do what you say you're going to do and stay consistent mean what you say, just stick to that. And the environment will change certainly at a pace in the way that you've just described around you. But if you just say fixed on that simple idea, you'll always find a way to build trust. But it does depend, it does depend. Who you are depends on the nature of the problem that you're dealing with. Depends on what it is you're trying to achieve, either as an individual or as a business. But I think that's a truism regardless, isn't it?

Doug Downs (21:30):

That part feels like it hasn't changed. That feels like the part that's been on forever and ever and ever that we define our principles as organizations or as personal brands. And we live up to those, we declare 'em and we live up to those principles, whatever they are. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Farzana Baduel (21:47):

In a way, Trump has his own principles and he lives up to them. He does. And so it's really quite interesting because if Trump then started sort of talking in a completely different style and bringing on the use of experts, and I dunno what, and press conferences with the New York Times, people would then, the trust in him would just decimate. So it doesn't matter what you stand for, I guess it's really about consistency and alignment.

Andy Coulson (22:22):

And I think, as I say, I think it's about what is it that you're trying to achieve? And I think what he wanted to achieve was very straightforward, was to become the president of the United States and then to become the president of the United States again. And that what he has stayed laser focused on now, who knows what actually matters to him now, but I suspect actually it's legacy I suspect. Say what you like about Donald Trump. But I think family, actually, this is a man who stands on stage with his family, wrapped around him at every opportunity. Now maybe there's some cynicism in the back of that. I'm not so sure. It's entirely cynicism. Talks about his family a lot, the way he got his son involved in the campaign, who by the way made a brilliant strategic decision in getting him to go on Joe Rogan. There's something there, right? And legacy is clearly important to him.

Doug Downs (23:11):

Andy, I've really enjoyed meeting you. Appreciate your time today.

Andy Coulson (23:15):

Oh, thanks for having me on guys.

Farzana Baduel (23:16):

So Andy, in our previous episode, our guest, Tina McCorkindale of the Institute of Public Relations left a question for you.

Tina McCorkindale (23:26):

If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about our industry, what would that be and why? You have to give a really good reason why, and it has to be really good, really good.

Andy Coulson (23:41):

I'd change its name. We keep calling it PR and PR needs PR, right? Because I try not to, not for any other reason than I think I try not to use it, not for any other reason because PR I think is just, is so in need of a rebrand. I focus more on the word reputation because PR just comes with this idea of it being somehow dark, malevolent in some way, or it is absolute lowest that it's just kind of slightly deceitful. And I think trying to protect, drive, protect, grow a reputation is an entirely positive endeavor. I really do. And we should frame it in that way, in my view. We watch, I dunno, we watch sport, we watch Rory McElroy, right? Hit an absolute beauty onto the green and we'll just stand and celebrate quite rightly and clap and applaud. And yet the amount of work that he's put in, the amount of professional advice he's had, the amount of psychology that he's, amount of psychological coaching that he's had to be able to hit that shot in that moment so perfectly, all of it celebrated. You get someone pop up and deliver a great piece of comms, it's spin and it's, oh my goodness, there was a story here recently Farzana. You remember Keir Starmer having used a voice coach

Andy Coulson (25:19):

And I'm not someone who's going to sit on a podcast and celebrate Keir, trust me. But so why shouldn't the prime minister be trying to be a better communicator? Right? Of course he should. Exactly. Shouldn't he be seeking to get a better reputation as someone who could communicate? I'd be rather disappointed if he wasn't trying. And yet it is seen as spin and PR and somehow the other, some a bit game playing.

Farzana Baduel (25:47):

Yeah, because even Margaret Thatcher, she had voice coaching because she had quite a high pitch voice and it didn't lend itself to credibility and authority. So then she learned how to lower the tone of her voice and speak in a more authoritative way. So it is, that's

Andy Coulson (26:03):

Right, even now Farzana, even now, that story is told slightly kind of. Right. So she was fake. That's all that was, because

Doug Downs (26:13):

The narrative that they put in front of it, right? That those voices have a narrative they want to push. Exactly. Exactly.

Andy Coulson (26:20):

I think, listen, I'm not suggesting we shouldn't criticize inauthenticity. Of course we should, and we should always be on our guard against it. But the idea of trying to be a better communicator, the idea of trying to work a bit harder on your reputation, as I say, I think that's a positive endeavor. And the business needs to, or the industry should work a bit harder at that, I think.

Farzana Baduel (26:44):

And maybe the Americans are more accepting because they have this strong self-development culture. And so to be a better communicator from an American perspective is, well, that's good. You're actually taking lessons and you are honing your skills. Whereas over here we sort of slightly feel as if they're doing it to try and undermine us and manipulate us. And is that cynicism that we have?

Doug Downs (27:08):

It depends on who's doing it though. If it's not my party, I won't

Farzana Baduel (27:11):

Support it.

Doug Downs (27:13):

Yeah, exactly. I love as comms pros and make our living explaining things reasonably and with clarity, we still can't explain to our moms what we do for a living. Your turn. Andy, what question would you like to leave behind for our next guest?

Andy Coulson (27:29):

Exactly right. So on my podcast I like to finish by asking guests for their crisis compass. So four points of navigation to sort of manage life's tough stuff. So I'm going to cheat with your question if I may, and I'm going to ask your next guest for a daily habit, a comfort single piece of advice that they've relied on.

Doug Downs (27:57):

And coffee doesn't count, right?

Andy Coulson (27:59):

Coffee does not count, I'm afraid.

Doug Downs (28:01):

Okay. Alright. Do you have one Farzana? Do you have one top of mind? Is there one you stand on?

Farzana Baduel (28:06):

Walking my dog. I mean, walking my dog in the park is just the best way to start the day. Just in nature amongst trees with a happy dog is just happy to be alive. And that's the way I like to start my day. That's the way I like to end my day.

Andy Coulson (28:21):

Dogs are so important. I got a brilliant piece of advice quite a long time ago actually, when I was in the midst of my troubles. And he says, someone said to me, try and be the person that your dog thinks you are. Yeah. Which I think is absolutely spot on.

Doug Downs (28:38):

Thanks so much, Andy.

Farzana Baduel (28:39):

Thank you, Andy.

Andy Coulson (28:40):

Great. All the best.

Farzana Baduel (28:44):

Here are the top three things we got today from Andy Coulson. Number one, authenticity and consistency are the foundation for a comeback. Andy emphasizes when facing cancellation, the key is not reinvention or denial. It's owning your mistakes and being consistent in your values.

Doug Downs (29:04):

He was completely authentic in that whole interview. You could just feel it

Farzana Baduel (29:08):

Just resonated. Now, number two, the internet makes scandal sticky, but the attention span works both ways. And he explained how technology and algorithms keep scandals alive, resurfacing old issues as if they happen yesterday. But he also acknowledged that in today's age of attention deficit, people do move on fast in some cases, particularly in politics. Number three, PR needs a rebrand. Reputation is a noble pursuit. What do you think of that, Doug?

Doug Downs (29:39):

So I remember reputation management was the first scheme I was hired into in the nineties. So I think we've tried reputation management. It didn't stick

Farzana Baduel (29:51):

Well. Andy's not a great fan of the word pr. When he asked what he would change about the industry, Andy said he would stop calling it PR. The term apparently comes with baggage, spin, deception, manipulation. Instead, he refers focusing on reputation, which he sees as positive and a strategic endeavor where we do have a bit of a funny reputation. I mean, where an industry of PR people meant to be reputation experts. How is it that we have a PR problem, Doug?

Doug Downs (30:21):

I have no idea. We try to relate to the public, which is public relations.

Farzana Baduel (30:25):

Well, that's what we're trying to figure out now on this podcast, is how to get a better PR reputation for our industry. Now, if you would like to send a message to our guest, Andy, we've got some contact information in the show notes. Stories and Strategies is a co-production of KRS and Public Relations, JGR Communications and Stories and Strategies, podcasts. If you liked this episode, please leave a rating and possibly a review. Thank you to our producers, Emily Page and David Olijade. Lastly, please do us a favour forward this episode to one friend and thank you so much for listening.