Culture Add – NOT Culture Fit

Emily Page (00:03):

Before we jump into today's conversation, let's start with a story, one that might feel a little too familiar. It's about comfort, pressure, and what happens when workplace culture leans too far in either direction.

Doug Downs (00:20):

It was a Monday morning like any other, but in two very different corners of the city, two very different women were getting ready for work. The first Emma filled her favorite mug with coffee and sank into her velvet armchair. She opened her laptop with a sigh, not a dread, but if something softer. Comfort, the kind that comes from birthday cards. Signed by the whole team, weekly wellness check-ins and a slack channel dedicated to cat memes. Her agency prided itself on being one big happy family. But by noon, Emma's comfort had curdled into complacency, deadlines had slipped. Ideas, hovered just above mediocrity, and no one said a word because saying a word might disrupt the calm.

(01:11):

Meanwhile, across town, Jade stepped into her office like she was stepping into a storm. She'd already fielded three emails before she even finished brushing her teeth. Her calendar was packed. Her boss was brilliant but brisk. And at 10 0 5 sharp, she was in a brainstorm that felt more like a battlefield, sharp minds, sharper elbows. By 6:00 PM Jade was exhausted, not just from the workload, but from the feeling she had to earn her place every single day. And here's the twist. Neither woman, Emma or Jade was thriving. One was taking a warm bath, the other, a cold shower, and neither one was fully clean. Because culture, real culture isn't about comfort alone. And it's not about performance alone. It's about intention. Empathy and excellence shouldn't be opposites. They should be allies o for the workplace where people can do the best work of their lives and feel like their lives matter today on stories and strategies, building a workplace that's both a warm bath and a cold shower, soothing when it needs to be bracing, when it has to be, and just right for real people doing real work. My name is Doug Downs,

Farzana Baduel (02:41):

And my name is Farzana Baduel. And just before we start is special thank you to Kaylin Moore who sent us a lovely note on LinkedIn. Kaylin is a student at Belmont University in Nashville, and she asked for some transcripts, which we promptly sent, and she and her a castmate going to give a presentation at the university about stories and strategies podcast.

Doug Downs (03:03):

Wow.

Farzana Baduel (03:03):

Kaylin. Thank you

Doug Downs (03:06):

That's awesome.

Farzana Baduel (03:07):

It is. Right. And so today our guest this week is Jo Carr joining us today from the uk. Hi Jo.

Jo Carr (03:15):

Hi Farzana.

Farzana Baduel (03:17):

How are things in the UK? Are you in London or elsewhere?

Jo Carr (03:22):

I'm in London. The sun is shining, which obviously, as you know, is a rare occurrence, so we're all enjoying it. People are taking their clothes off, but it's only 20 degrees, but oh no, it's, it's not pretty, but it's very, yeah, it's lovely to feel some warmth

Farzana Baduel (03:36):

Yeah, that's pretty much a heat wave in the UK. 20 degrees. I'm in Cairo, which is actually approximately the same, so that's pretty good going for the uk. So Jo, you are the co-founder and the chief client officer at Hope and Glory PR and an award-winning creative agency. With over 30 years of experience, you've collaborated with prominent brands such as Airbnb, Uber, Ikea, and Virgin Media 02. You've also serve as the president of Women in PR championing gender equity within the public relations industry.

Doug Downs (04:12):

Welcome. It's great to have you Jo

Jo Carr (04:14):

(04:14):

Thank you for inviting me.

Doug Downs (04:16):

So culture, Jo, what does culture mean when we're talking about the workplace to you? Why is it critical, especially in a creative agency environment like Hope and Glory?

Jo Carr (04:27):

That's a very good question, Doug. And I think, I mean, let's be clear. There have been reams of books and academic studies on culture and organizational culture. But from a personal perspective, the reason it's important is that it's the way to get your, basically make sure people do their best work. And in my view, there are two elements to it. One is about an environment. The environment. You create an environment where people feel safe, they feel they're able to speak up without being criticized. They feel like they can absolutely bring everything into work and do their best work, but it's also about the experience and how you make people feel. I know that wonderful quote isn't there by Maya Angelou, which is that people won't remember what you said, they won't remember what you did, but they will remember how you make them feel. And for me, that is a really big part of culture.

Farzana Baduel (05:22):

Do you know, Jo, a lot of people think that there's a trade-off between having a sort of warm and inclusive environment when everyone's really happy and skipping to work or the equivalent in remote work skipping to their desk downstairs. And then there's a trade off between really sort of cracking the whip, getting the work done, making sure the milestones are hit and deadline driven, which is so intrinsic to pr. Do you think there is a trade off? And if there is a trade off, how have you navigated it?

Jo Carr (05:55):

Yeah, you're right, actually there's this view isn't there that if you do really great work, you must be really tough on your people. And if you're great on your people, somehow the work's a bit soft. It's not really very creative, it's not very meaningful, and I just don't think that's true. I think you can do both. And I think at Hope and Glory, we work very hard at looking at how can we be a very high challenge, but high support environment. When I think about it, and I drill it down and I talk about be tough on the task, but kind on the person, you can be absolutely laser focused on the quality of the work, the idea how it's implemented, the activation, but you can do that by showing up in a really kind, supportive, wonderful way. You don't have to be an idiot in terms of how you deal with people. And I was reflecting on it the other day, and so many people in this industry I speak to have stories, war stories of having things thrown at them, shouted at belittled, bullied. I mean, it's incredible. And quite frankly, they shouldn't be that behavior right in any business, let alone a creative business. But it sometimes feels that it comes with the territory. But I think you can be high challenge, push people to come up with brilliant ideas, but also wrap around a supportive culture at the same time.

Doug Downs (07:22):

So I grew up playing in a lot of bands when I was younger. And so the whole creative process thing when we called it jamming, when we were practicing, allow the creative process to flow, and then when it's showtime, that's when you hit it. But the reality of the workplace, I always tried to bring that in as a leader, but the reality of the workplace is different People are at different stages in their lives. Some are just coming out of post-secondary, some haven't even been to post-secondary, and they're well into their forties and fifties and they've got families and others are winding maybe toward the end of their careers or feeling kind of like it. And they don't want to be the old person in the corner with their head down or stuck at a computer. They're all going to have different ideas. How do you juggle all of that?

Jo Carr (08:11):

Well, isn't that the power of it? Isn't that the beauty of

Doug Downs (08:14):

That's the crux, yeah,

Jo Carr (08:15):

Yeah. Working particularly in our industry, and we know that the more diverse group of people that we have, the better the ideas, the better the work. So I think that's wonderful. I mean, that's absolutely how it should be. I often think of cultures in some ways. You built a house, right? You're the architect, you've created a structure, but all the rooms are going to be different and they're going to be furnished differently and going to be, people are going to be bringing different things. They might have a scatter cushion who knows a throw a rug, but they're going to occupy that in a way that works for them. And I think the best cultures are respectful of that, that you've created enough rituals, rules, ways that I guess structure that people feel safe in. But there is enough room for individual expression within that too.

Doug Downs (09:06):

Can I add on to that though? But when I interview, I conduct a fit interview, so I'm not looking for them to have different ideas. I'm looking to make sure they fit what we think we've already built.

Jo Carr (09:17):

Well, no, I think that's moved on. I think Doug, you're going to have to change your frames of reference. I think it's not so much about fit, it's about adding what will they add to your culture, not will they fit with the existing culture? What's the additive piece? And of course you want to make sure that people get on and there are some shared values in the shared belief system, but you're looking for the add, the culture add, not the culture of it.

Farzana Baduel (09:43):

Now, Jo, when I started out in PR, my daughter was a year old. And when I look back at my career and I think about the milestones in my life, sort of getting married, having a child, the sort milestones that she went through, and then now in my late forties. So you've got perimenopause and it's sort of one size doesn't fit all. I had different needs at different stages in my life with respect to career. And I wanted to ask, you are very well known Jo in the industry for having an enormous reservoir of empathy, but how do you translate that empathy into actual policies that fit the different life stages of your team, which is almost a hundred.

Jo Carr (10:34):

Yeah, you're right. When you're managing, people say to me, oh wow, you've got a hundred people. How exciting. I say, no, no, that's a hundred complicated individual lives. Everybody who shows up is unique, they're different. And at any given one, any time there's something going on. I was reflecting on the other day. I think in one day we had a bereavement, sadly we had a cancer diagnosis, we also had a birth and we had other joyful occasions as well. But you are having to pivot the whole time as a leader of a business. And I think what you have to do is create policies that at that point where people are going to feel overwhelmed or facing difficult circumstances, that there is something already written already kind of down on paper as to how this is going to go. And I think that gives people a tremendous confidence if they know you've already thought that through.

(11:32):

So when we started Hope and Glory 12 years ago, I actually wrote the handbook. I wrote the company handbook in week two. There were two of us. There were just two of us. But I thought we need to have a roadmap as to what we're going to do when everything happens. And at the time, there were only when we were small and there were 10 of us, perhaps James and I, were the only parents. Now 20% of the team are parents. And we've had to evolve our policies as we've grown. And actually you do flex to what's happening in people's lives. So we have a miscarriage policy because sadly that's been experienced by our team. We have a grief policy, we have a menopause policy because that's also been experienced by our team. So you start to add to your policies, but you are, I think reflecting what's happening in people's life stages as you go and listening and responding in the best way that you can.

Doug Downs (12:29):

So policies always feel to me like a little bit of top down, but I know you can't get there without bottom up. Tell me about some of the bottom up process, bottom's such a terrible word, but the interweaving of communication and how important it's to listen to those a hundred people.

Jo Carr (12:47):

A hundred percent. And then people always say, don't you have two ears and one mouth? And there's a reason for that. And we do listen a lot. We have team impact groups within the agency which will represent different interest groups. And one of those actually is a parenting group, and they are very vocal, which is great at telling us what we're getting right and what we're getting wrong. We realized for a long time that we were market leading, I think in the types of policy we had around parental leave, but perhaps weren't quite getting it right when it came to returners. So people would go on their maternity or their paternity leaves, but we perhaps weren't giving enough thought to when they came back into the business, were we giving them enough time? Were we supporting them through that? So now we do coaching, we do return of coaching, so everybody coming back has three coaching sessions. That wouldn't have happened unless our moms and dads had said to me, this bit's good of what we do, but actually we could do this bit better. So it's two way, it's a two-way dialogue the whole time

Doug Downs (13:46):

Do you get feedback sometimes that you can't? Sometimes no, that's not, we're not going there. And how do you know?

Jo Carr (13:56):

I mean, I think we always try and be as open-minded we can, and if we can find a fix for something, we will. But you're right, not everything will work. And we often talk about the unintended consequences of action or a policy. So we'll look at it in the round and we go, look, if we did this, what would be the unintended consequences? Because sometimes it might have a consequence for somebody else in the organization who may feel they're not being treated in the same way. So you're trying to create a series of things that feel inclusive but also are fair and that people feel they're being treated fairly, whether they have children or they don't have children, whether they have a dog or they don't have a dog. All of those things are up for discussion. I think

Farzana Baduel (14:41):

I wanted to ask, just touch upon diversity, I wanted your thoughts on what's happening across the pond in terms of dismantling of DEI frameworks. Do you think that's going to also take place around the world in the UK in other markets as well?

Jo Carr (15:02):

It's a very good point for Farzana, and I think the answer to that is we hope not, but lots of American brands obviously operate out of the UK. I dunno how long it will take for some of the sentiment that's happening in the US to potentially come and hit UK shores. I feel at the moment the industry is being very protective of the d and i frameworks that are in place. And I think a doubling down, if anything else on those, I certainly feel there are more discussions, more community groups coming together and having those discussions. So I think we are knowing it might come and almost gearing ourselves up to have a bit of a fight if it does come.

Farzana Baduel (15:47):

Yeah, I agree because I sort of feel as if, I think our industry in particular, we understand the importance of diversity because we're creating messages for a diverse audience. And so naturally we understand and diversity is wider than just gender and ethnicity. It's also socioeconomic, it's it's newer divergence as well. So I think it's a really interesting time for our industry because I see us being at the forefront of really trying to resist those changes because it'll have such a negative impact to our industry. I

Jo Carr (16:25):

Completely agree. I completely agree.

Doug Downs (16:28):

Can I play devil's advocate to that? Sorry. I mean, I get the whole idea of establishing a single culture at work, but at the same time, what we're talking about here is society's demand that I hire people of different cultures. If I don't, I get accused of being prejudiced. How am I supposed to establish a workplace culture when by process, by societal demand, I'm supposed to hire people from different cultures.

Jo Carr (16:57):

But Doug, I don't think culture is monolithic. I don't think there is one culture, and I guess going back to my analogy of the house and the structure, that can be one thing, but the people who occupy it can be quite different. And I think there is room for both. There is absolutely room for both. When I think of culture, I think of the rules, the rituals, the intentional actions that bring people together, the belief system, the connective tissue almost that brings things together. But that actually, wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same? And actually in any company, you want to have different ages, different gender, different ethnicities, and that's what makes our industry so rich, I think, and the ideas so valuable,

Doug Downs (17:44):

Kind of like a family, you use the house metaphor and that leads me to family. None of the five in our house are exactly the same. We had someone stop by the door asking which way we're going to vote in local elections. I said, well, there's five voters in the house. Pretty sure three of them are going this way. One of them's definitely going that way, and the other one, I can't figure them out. Yeah,

Jo Carr (18:06):

I think a good culture should be loose enough that it gives surety confidence, safety for people, but it also allows you to have your own view and to be able to challenge and to operate within that. That's my

Doug Downs (18:25):

View. The culture is, we can talk about it around the dinner table

Jo Carr (18:27):

Completely, and that you are not worried about being, there's no fear, right? There's no fear of bringing up your political views at the dinner table because you may not be agreed with the person on the opposite side, but you'll be listened to and your views will be held respectfully and there is space for them. I think that's the key thing. I think a culture is about creating space.

Farzana Baduel (18:50):

I love that. Jo, you are president of women in pr. Can you share with our audience what women in PR is and why you decided to step up and be president? And also during your journey, what have you learned about women in the PR industry and specifically why so few of them make it to senior roles?

Jo Carr (19:13):

That's a very good question. I think we've had, well, women in PR is a UK organization that's been going for six decades. It started long before me, believe it or not, and probably started at a time when there weren't that many women in the comms industry. Now we know that's changed. We know now that nearly 70% of women in the UK in comms, I mean they are women in comms. What I think is really fascinating is that only a third of men have a comms role. Sorry, a third of the industry are men.

(19:49):

But actually when you look at the stats, over 50% are in senior roles. So something has gone awry in all of that. And there we've been talking about these missing women who somehow they start their career and they never quite follow through because they leave and they leave for a whole host of different reasons and they're blocked or there are barriers that they decide that they don't particularly want to overcome, or they're actually very resourceful and think, actually, this isn't for me. I'm going to do it on my own terms and I'm going to maybe do something else instead. So the organization is really there to increase the diversity and numbers of women in leadership positions. That's the reason for being, that's the whole mantra. That's why we get out of bed in the morning and it's very fulfilling. And what I think I've learned to your question about what have I learned is that every woman's experience is really different. We are all very unique and there isn't a one size fits all. And as an organization, we need to hear those voices and we need to bring those into how we evolve the industry so that it actually is fairer because the whole intersectionality piece isn't talked about enough. I don't think we talk about one gender and another gender. We don't talk about what's it like to be a black woman working in pr, or what's it like to be a queer woman working in pr? All of those things we should be talking about more.

Farzana Baduel (21:15):

Jo, I wanted to ask, what advice do you have for women who want to step into senior roles as well as advice for men who want to support women in the workplace to enter into those senior olds?

Jo Carr (21:30):

Where do you start? Right. I wish I had a silver bullet for that one.

Farzana Baduel (21:35):

You are incredible. You're such an inspiration to so many of us. Jo, start with what you've learned along the way.

Jo Carr (21:45):

What have I learned? I think the best advice I got given a long time ago was 80% is good enough. I think this industry attracts a lot of perfectionists. People who are high achievers, they absolutely want to do the best all of the time. And I remember being told probably about 20 years ago, Jo, 80% is good enough. Maybe your house won't be perfectly tidy. At the end of the day, maybe you are going to miss a particular networking event, but it doesn't matter. Just do the best you can do at the time, and that will be, don't strive for perfection because you'll never get there. So I think that was a really good piece of advice. The other piece that when my children were small was be in the moment, so find to be busy at work, but actually the moment whenever I would come home, I would turn my phone off for the time that I had to do bedtime bath time. I was absolutely with them. And yeah, later on in the evening when they were in bed, I probably did log back on and I probably did work again. I probably had another shift, but I just felt like I wasn't having my attention pulled in two different directions. I was either all in with work or I was all in with my family when they needed me, and I tried not to have a foot in both camps.

Farzana Baduel (23:09):

That's really, really good advice for us all, and thank you so much, Jo.

Doug Downs (23:15):

Thanks, Jol.

Jo Carr (23:16):

Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure to come on and talk to you both.

Doug Downs (23:19):

Oh, hey, Jo. In our previous episode, our guest Sue, hell, Seth, he left a question for you,

Suhel Seth (23:26):

What keeps you up at night?

Jo Carr (23:28):

I can answer that from a personal perspective for menopause keeps me up at night. I literally, I probably wake up at two o'clock, four o'clock, and that's just hormones raging. So that's a very personal view on what keeps me awake at night. Professionally, I think it's the fear of sliding into mediocrity. I think about hope and glory, and I think we've built something very special and we've built it very intentionally and we never want to be complacent. And I just worry. I think I'm naturally anxious anyway, but my worry would be, what if we just stop coming up with good ideas? What if we don't keep hiring the best people? So I just don't want to slide into mediocrity. And so I think that gets me out of bed every morning of wanting the next idea to be the best idea and to keep evolving the agency. So

Doug Downs (24:25):

That's like make sure you hit the 80%, don't become 70%.

Jo Carr (24:29):

Exactly. Yeah. I know I won't get to a hundred, but I really have to get to 80. I don't want to slide down to 50.

Farzana Baduel (24:37):

I love that. Now your turn. Jo, what question would you like to leave behind for our next guest?

Jo Carr (24:42):

Oh, okay. I would like to ask when things get tough, because there are highs and there are lows aren't there in this industry, what are the things that you won't let go in terms of self-care or resilience? What are the things you won't let go when things get tough?

Doug Downs (25:06):

I go back to values. For me, it's honesty and as much transparency that I can provide without spilling into someone's personal information.

Jo Carr (25:18):

It's really interesting. I think sometimes when things are going badly, the temptation is to lean out and to run away and try and make yourself small. And I think you almost have to do the opposite, right? You have to jump in and be more of yourself to get through it.

Doug Downs (25:35):

Yeah.

Jo Carr (25:35):

So we've got great answers. I hope your next guest has a good answer.

Doug Downs (25:39):

Yeah, really, really do appreciate your time today, Jo.

Jo Carr (25:43):

Well, thank you. I really enjoyed talking to you both.

Doug Downs (25:45):

Thank

Farzana Baduel (25:45):

You.

Doug Downs (25:49):

Here are the top three things we got from Jo Carr today. Number one kind doesn't mean soft. Jo reminded us that great work doesn't require cruelty, hope and glory. They prove you can challenge fiercely while leading with kindness, being tough on the task, but kind on the person. Number two, culture add, not culture fit. Thanks, Jo. When it comes to hiring, Jo flipped the script. Instead of asking if someone fits the team, she asks, what will they add? Because real creativity comes from building a house full of different rooms, not matching the furniture. And number three, policies that proceed the problem. Before there were a hundred people at her agency, Jo was already writing a handbook because to her good leadership means being ready for the hard days before they happen, with policies built from listening, not just managing. Hey, if you'd like to send a message, our guest, Jo Carr, she's listening. We've got her contact information in the show notes, stories and strategies as a co-production of Curzon PR, JGR Communications and Stories and Strategies, podcasts. If you like this episode, please leave a rating, possibly a review. Thank you to producers Emily Page and David Olajide. Lastly, do us a favour forward this episode to one friend. Thanks for listening.