Exploring Trust in Media Brands Today

Doug Downs (00:11):

On November 3rd, 1948, the Chicago Daily Tribune ran a headline that like all headlines should burst from the page and made people take notice. Dewey defeats Truman. The headline and the story below described the previous night's election results in which Republican Thomas Dewey beat Democrat Harry Truman to become the 34th president of the United States. And there was only one problem. The headline was inaccurate. Dewey lost to Truman, and by the time people woke up the next morning to read it, they all knew it. The Tribune had gone to press the previous night before the results were final, and they relied on a political analyst to predict the winner. About 150,000 of those wrong headline papers were printed. President Harry Truman got a hold of one the next day and triumphantly displayed it at St. Louis Union Station for press for photographers. Newspapers had their heyday beginning back in the 19th century, but trust and availability saw them boom to become incredibly influential voices in society right into the 1990s. But as television grew stronger and with the emergence then of the internet, the range of media choices expanded today, most of us prefer to get our information digitally through apps, websites, social media platforms, podcasts, YouTube, search engines, or even traditional media websites. It all comes down to whom we trust today on stories and strategies, exploring trust in media brands.

(02:09):

My name is Doug Dos. My guest this week is Steffen Heim, joining today from Hamburg, Germany. Guten tag, Steffen.

Steffen Heim (02:15):

Guten tag Doug, it's nice to see you. Thanks for having me.

Doug Downs (02:18):

How are things in Hamburg today?

Steffen Heim (02:20):

They're good. They're pretty sunny. It's not what you expect from Hamburg, but it's pretty sunny.

Doug Downs (02:24):

Do you normally get rain this time of year, like clouds and rain or

Steffen Heim (02:28):

It's like London in Germany.

Doug Downs (02:30):

Oh yeah, yeah, I get it. So in Hamburg, HSV or St Pauli, those are the two major football clubs in the Bundesliga. Whose t-shirt would you wear?

Steffen Heim (02:42):

I'd usually wear the Kaiserslautern T-shirt because I'm not from Hamburg originally, but if I have to pick in Hamburg, I'm going to go with St Pauli.

Doug Downs (02:49):

Okay, okay. Good to know. And the season kicks off I think in a few days here at the end of July.

Steffen Heim (02:54):

So yes, it's three more weeks I think. Pretty exciting.

Doug Downs (02:57):

Excellent. Steffen, you're a PhD candidate at the Helmut Schmidt University in Hamburg. The media brand trust scale project is funded by Nord Academy Foundation. You've also studied at the University of Florida and the TongChi University in Shanghai. You as well have a bachelor of engineering in aerospace, aeronautical and astronautical engineering from the Baden Wuettenberg Cooperative State University. Did I come close to pronouncing that right?

Steffen Heim (03:25):

Perfect pronunciation.

Doug Downs (03:27):

Oh, nice, nice. Well, I had time to practice. So now trust and media brands, you've pretty much dedicated a professional life of study to this. What does this mean? And tell me about your most recent study.

Steffen Heim (03:44):

Thanks for the question. Actually, I thought about that question before and I, I'd like to split it up. So first trust and then media when thinking about trust, and that is something that I realized we're working on the topic, I've realized that trust basically is everywhere. So when you watch the news, when you talk to friends, when you read news about politics, about business, about economics, about whatever trust is in every sentence, the word trust is included because it all is all based in trust

Doug Downs (04:11):

When you listen to a podcast,

Steffen Heim (04:12):

When you listen to a podcast, it's all about trust and coming to the other part of the project, the media part of the project, it's of course also relevant to media brands. And what changed in the last 20 or 25 years maybe, is that because of the digitalization? The whole media landscape changed. Like 20, 25 years ago, we had some TV channels, we had radio, we had newspapers, and that was about it. And now in today's environment, we get media everywhere. We have media on our phones in our pans, we get all those huge media outlets that were relevant 20, 25 years ago already on our phones. Not only in their environment, but on social media where they can't really control what they're doing anymore. So this connection between media and trust is so relevant today and it's more relevant than it ever was. It was relevant like 20, 25, 40 years ago already. But because of all those changes, this combination is just massively important for media today, especially because of the importance of media, because it just shapes the way we experience the world, the way we think, the way we see things. It's all based on what we consume and therefore it's really, really important what we consume. And if we trust those channels,

Doug Downs (05:36):

It needs to be earned more perhaps today than in the past where it's a little bit more of a given.

Steffen Heim (05:42):

Exactly. And it's, it's just so much more competition in the market because you always take in social media as an example, you cannot really control the channel. You can try to make people follow you, but then they will read your news and the news of the first competitor and the second competitor right next to each other. And it's really, really hard to gain that trust, to keep that trust and to get their attention actually. So trust is one really, really important part of getting that attention and keeping that attention and that that's ac actually what we're doing. So the topic we're talking about today, basically what is trust in media brands, what are media brands? And the main part of the project is how to measure that. So the most recent study coming to the last part of the question, the most recent study is the actual development of the media brand trust scale we call it. So actual development of items, of dimensions of questions which we can ask, which we can combine to measure trust in media brands specifically, which media brands of course then can use to understand if they are trusted or not. And if not, how to improve it based on specific elements, not based on do you trust me or not, but on specific parts of that trust, that complex thing called trust that you can actually tweak.

Doug Downs (07:04):

I know the next natural question is here, what distinguishes a media brand from a brand? But let me ask it in a different way because I've read your, well, I've read most of your study, just to be totally honest. Generally what you found is that brands tend to operate in a persuasive manner while media brands, you call them social, she, so forgive me for being naive here, but it seems to me one is openly trying to sell something and not hiding it, that being the brand while the other is operating under the guise of trying to provide information or a social atmosphere where I feel I belong. So I belong in this circle, but deep down there really trying to sell me something maybe somewhat indirectly through advertising. Do I have that right?

Steffen Heim (07:52):

You got that perfectly correct. I think that the main difference is that brands actually earn money through selling shoes. For example, they sell the shoes and they earn money because you pay for them. For media brands, it's different because especially because of the digitalization. Again, like 20, 25 years ago you bought a newspaper and they earned money through selling that newspaper. But today, consuming media online, you mostly consume media for free. So you pay with your data or you pay because you pay with your attention because there are advertisements on the page, right? So the major difference is that brands, they just need to sell the product once. Like Fmct brands of course sell them repeatedly again and again and again. And the shoe company wants to sell shoes again and again of course, but if they sell it, they earn money. And media brands need you to come back and to read again or to watch the news again or to whatever, engage with the entertainment again, because then you also see the advertisements and they earn money through those advertisements. So they need to engage you, they need to be interesting to you, they need to be part of your daily routine to be able to earn money that way.

Doug Downs (09:12):

And in today's world, we have, let's take shoes. Let's say I sell shoes. A key part of my marketing strategy may well be to create content, which becomes media. I might have a podcast, I might create a big newsletter, I might have a YouTube channel. So I'm crossing over to be perceived somewhat as a media channel. So simple question, what are the benefits of having my audience think of my brand as a media brand or as participating in a media channel?

Steffen Heim (09:45):

I think first of all, I actually thought about the question a lot before and it's really hard to be perceived or to influence the way you are perceived because in our study, for example, we used Red Bull as an example because they spend so much money on whatever sports and they have their own TV channel and they have so much money in that game trying to be perceived as media. And we included that in the study where we tried to find out what do consumers perceive as media and what do they not perceive as media? And Red Bull had like 12% media rating or something like that, maybe it was 15. So it's really, really hard to influence how you are perceived, especially because consumers usually don't perceive one singular brand as media and a similar other brand not, but they'd rather per perceive areas in the market as media. So for example, streaming is media or TV of course is media, radio is media. Podcasts are media because they are part of audio streaming. So if you are in those areas, you are perceived as media as well. But if you are, for example, if you are a network provider like T-Mobile or something like that, you're not media to them and you can try to be, because you produce movies for example, or you produce podcasts, then that podcast might be perceived as the media brand itself, but your original parent company won't.

Doug Downs (11:09):

Got it. The core of your brand, Red Bull remains an energy drink provider. Exactly. Manufacturer, distributor, whatever. So now the research that you did was in the United States, in Germany and South Korea, so three very distinct parts of the globe. What were the regional differences that you found?

Steffen Heim (11:27):

One of the major differences was that the media perception differs in the three markets. So in Germany we had really, really broad media perception of the brands were included in the survey, more than 60% of those brands were perceived as media. Whereas in Korea we had a 40, 45% rating. Not of course we didn't use the same brands, we used some brands in all three countries, like Facebook is relevant in all three. But we also included local brands of course, to see how consumers from those markets see those brands. And that was one of the major differences. Another difference we found, which was really interesting is the general perception of media and also the trust towards media. We, we surveyed those three markets because of course, cultural differences, looking at whole data for example, and because of the media differences, the media, the differences in the media systems, because in Germany we have a mixed system.

(12:28):

We have public and private brands. In the US you mostly almost only have private brands. In Korea, you mostly or almost only have public brands. So taking those differences into account and talking to those consumers. We conducted focus group interviews in the three markets. We found that in Germany there were loads of participants. We conducted three surveys. And in all three surveys we found participants saying, there are some brands that I trust, and if I read news on another channel and I'm not sure if I can trust it, I go back to the channel I trust and I try to double check it. So there is some kind of way to find out if you can trust another channel as well, or one go-to place if there's something really relevant. Back in the day when we conducted the survey, it was Covid. So they said, if I want to get information on Covid, I go to the channel.

(13:21):

I trust for the us it's a lot harder. There were some saying, yeah, during the elections, there were some TV stations that did a good job and that helped me to trust them a little more, but I wouldn't say I really trust them because they all need to earn money. In Korea, we had the opposite. So they were like, I kind of trust them, but I don't really, really, really trust them because they're all public. So the difference we have here in Germany seems to improve trust in the whole system, which was really, really interesting to see.

Doug Downs (13:57):

No kidding. Also interesting in your study is that the channel we use has a strong impact on the level of the trust, which are the most trusted channels and which are the least.

Steffen Heim (14:11):

Actually, I'm not really able to answer that yet because as I said earlier, we're working on the media brand trust scale, and we will conduct the surveys later this year and we will build a media brand, trust monitor, website, whatever it's going to be called in the end. And we will include those brands in there. But I can tell you some things about the areas I named before. So what we found, for example, is that the informing areas like news channels, offline, online news channels, for example, they tend to be trusted a little more than entertaining. Entertaining areas. Offline is trusted more than online because of the time the media or the news are distributed. Because of course, if I print a newspaper once a day or even once a week, if it's a weekly newspaper, I have some time to double check to read again to be sure that the information are correct.

(15:05):

Online news has a huge issue with breaking news because you push them out as fast as possible because everybody else does as well, and you need to be fast, but you tend to make mistakes because of that, because you cannot double check. So offline is trusted a little more than online. We we're thinking about if the offline channels actually benefit online channels. If you are a newspaper and you have printed newspaper and a website, there might be a connection between the two because you're trusted offline, that might benefit you online as well. And what was also interesting is that even though the entertaining media brands or channels are trusted less in general, it seems to have not that big of an impact. Like Instagram was mentioned again and again and again, everybody said, I don't trust Instagram at all, but still I consume it every day because it's not about the information I consume there, but it's about the entertainment. It's about zoning out and just swiping my phone for five minutes and then going back to work.

Doug Downs (16:13):

So that's what stands out to me. When you say the study found that offline channels were more trusted than online because our habit, I know North America the best. I know Europe a little bit and Asia I'm learning, but the habit in North America at least is absolutely to online consumption of news and information. And right now, specifically social media, we'll see where that goes with generative AI and how it populates the world. Is this a case of we say one thing in our logic brain and we do something different in our far, far more emotional brain or our habits betraying what we know logically to be true?

Steffen Heim (16:54):

It's a perfect, perfect example for that. We have our daily habits, we develop our daily habits and our daily habits are not, at least for the majority of people, I guess it's not unfolding in newspaper in the morning and having a coffee, but it's rather sitting in train and just reading the news on your phone. You try to, or most people try to consume news media, especially news media. They trust because they know them from online environments. Or for example in Germany there's the public channels that are trusted a little more. At least it's what we think at the moment and what the initial results indicated. So people consume those online as well because they trust those offline, right? Oh yes. But still they consume them online.

Doug Downs (17:42):

The human animal is amazing. I know when I have dinner tonight, two thirds of my plate should be green, it should be leafy vegetables, good stuff. I'll be lucky if I have a carrot, right, that what I know to be good and what I actually do can be distinctly different things.

Steffen Heim (17:58):

The human nature. Yes.

Doug Downs (18:00):

So one other part of your study, if I trust the content that I read, see or hear, I'm more likely to trust the platform. Interesting, because I've seen studies showing that people have a low trust for Twitter, the brand because they see other people's posts that make them angry. Is that the same kind of thing?

Steffen Heim (18:26):

I think that's a pretty interesting, interesting example, especially for the last, comparing the last two years, the time after Elon Musk bought it and the time before that because I think that trust in the platform was diminished even more after it was bought. Because before, even though it was of course privately owned, it didn't have that strong kind of feel of privately ownership, private ownership that it has today. And also the way things are handled at the company also diminished trust, the platform which results in trusted content creators leaving the platform, which again reduces trust in the platform. So I

Doug Downs (19:09):

Didn't know who owned Twitter previous to Elon Musk. I'll say that much. Exactly. Yeah,

Steffen Heim (19:13):

Exactly. Yeah, most people didn't. And what we found is that the environment is really, really important. I brought my most favourite statement we found in the focus groups interview fo focus group interview interviews with me. And one participant said that when he reads news of the channel, he trusts in Germany, the channel he usually trusts. He follows that channel on Instagram. And if he sees a post and he reads it and he sees the same story, the same post again on the owned channel of that news outlet, he will tend to trust the post on the owned channel more than the post on Instagram because of the environment. And this seems to be connected to the halo effect. I don't know if you've ever heard of that before, the influence between the content and the platform and vice versa. So this is, especially for media brands, especially for media brands being active on social media, this is super important because if you're a News Outlet, you need to be aware that being active on social media might actually diminish trust in your brand. And that trust in your brand actually helps, for example, Twitter to be trusted more.

Doug Downs (20:32):

Awesome. I we've got a link to your study in the show notes, so if you want to go through the entire study, just click on the link. Stephan, thank you very much for your time today.

Steffen Heim (20:42):

Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

Doug Downs (20:44):

If you'd like to send a message to my guest, Steffen Heim, we have his LinkedIn contact information in the show notes. You can connect with him there as well. Stories and strategies is a co-production of J G R communications and Stories and Strategies, podcasts. If you liked this episode, would you do us one favour? Share it with one friend. It helps. You'll build the trust. Please give us a five star rating. That helps tell others that this is a podcast worth checking out. Thanks for listening.