Keir Starmer’s Image Crisis: Can Labour Win Over Its Own Members?

Farzana Baduel (00:09):
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome. I am back. I have not been kicked off the show. I was in war

Doug Downs (00:17):
Spent on a sojourn.

Farzana Baduel (00:20):
Hello and welcome to The Week UnSpun, a weekly live look at the world through the eyes of PR professionals. That will be us. My name is Farzana Baduel. I'm sitting here in London.

David Gallagher (00:31):
I'm David Gallagher, just a few miles up the road also in London,

Doug Downs (00:35):
And I'm Doug Downs somewhere nestled in Canada's Rocky Mountains amongst all the ostriches, but we'll get to that in a second.

Farzana Baduel (00:41):
Now, we have been wading through stories and stories and stories and we start off the week on Monday saying, right, we know this story. And then every single day there's just a tsunami of news. And what we're going to be talking about today is we are going to be talking a little bit about New York and the United Nations General Assembly. As I was their live correspondent, it was my first time, so I'm a total new beast. So seeing it through the eyes of a total UNGA virgin. And we're also going to be talking about Doug. I know he is really keen to talk about something about ostriches or something. Maybe it's a Canadian thing. I dunno.

Doug Downs (01:17):
Very Canadian. It's not beavers this time. It's ostriches.

Farzana Baduel (01:20):
Yeah, he's going to talk about that. And then

Doug Downs (01:22):
I've—

Farzana Baduel (01:22):
Been thinking a little bit about the Labour Party conference here in the UK and Sir Keir's image challenges. And I know Dave is going to weigh in on some news from the US and possibly the world of AI. Can I start off with my, I want to hear about—

Doug Downs (01:35):
New York.

Farzana Baduel (01:36):
Yeah, you win. So it was my first time ever. Of course, I've been to New York many times. I love the city, I love New Yorkers. And it was my first time going to the United Nations General Assembly and I was there wearing a number of hats in terms of the charity boards that I sit on and some work. And to be honest, as a newbie it was really overwhelming because you have your United Nations’ own events, and then you've got all these different fringe events. So you've got this pay-to-play organization called Concordia that has these amazing events that they put on. So they had the Syrian president there for instance, and Goldie Hawn and others. And then you've got the Gates Foundation and they've got their track and then you've got the Clinton Foundation, they've got their track of events and then you've got all these fringe events you've got to wade through.

(02:21):
 And so it is quite difficult to navigate as a newbie. Of course, I got stuck all the time whenever you had President Trump sort of driving up and down Midtown and so you'd be stuck and you would be for about 30 minutes. And it wasn't just myself—President Macron and lots of others. President Erdoğan couldn't cross the road either. And what I was most impressed by was actually Unstoppable Africa. They had taken over the Marriott Marquis in Manhattan and they ran their own two-day conference. And I thought what was incredible about Unstoppable Africa—they didn't wait to be invited to any other stage. They built their own stage and it was their third time running.

The first story is about Keir. So I was following the news and Keir had a very important Labour Party conference. Sky ran a poll during Labour conference asking the members: how popular is Keir Starmer in your eyes?

(03:16):
 And he didn't fare too well, unfortunately. And of course a lot of the media leapt upon that story. But it's one thing not being popular in the country, it's quite another thing not being popular within your own party. And of course the die-hard Labour supporters who actually spend the money and take time off work to attend the conference—they're meant to be really your arch supporters. And if they're not happy, something's quite wrong.

So what did Keir do? He went on the offensive—no more nice guy. Called Farage racist. And that led to all sorts of fallouts, but it did feel a little bit more coordinated in terms of the response, not being on the back foot anymore. And of course it was always Labour and Conservative in the UK, and all of a sudden Conservative is not even in the conversation and it's all about Labour and Reform.

But I wanted to bring you in, Doug. I mean, did the news of the Labour Party conference cut through to North America or was it just a blip that you saw on your social media?

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Week Unspun Transcript

Here is the fully spell-checked transcript with Canadian spelling conventions applied. All timestamps, speaker names, and conversational style have been preserved exactly as provided.

Farzana Baduel (00:09):
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome. I am back. I have not been kicked off the show. I was in war

Doug Downs (00:17):
Spent on a sojourn.

Farzana Baduel (00:20):
Hello and welcome to The Week UnSpun, a weekly live look at the world through the eyes of PR professionals. That will be us. My name is Farzana Baduel. I'm sitting here in London.

David Gallagher (00:31):
I'm David Gallagher, just a few miles up the road also in London,

Doug Downs (00:35):
And I'm Doug Downs somewhere nestled in Canada's Rocky Mountains amongst all the ostriches, but we'll get to that in a second.

Farzana Baduel (00:41):
Now, we have been wading through stories and stories and stories and we start off the week on Monday saying, right, we know this story. And then every single day there's just a tsunami of news. And what we're going to be talking about today is we are going to be talking a little bit about New York and the United Nations General Assembly. As I was their live correspondent, it was my first time, so I'm a total new beast. So seeing it through the eyes of a total UNGA virgin. And we're also going to be talking about Doug. I know he is really keen to talk about something about ostriches or something. Maybe it's a Canadian thing. I dunno.

Doug Downs (01:17):
Very Canadian. It's not beavers this time. It's ostriches.

Farzana Baduel (01:20):
Yeah, he's going to talk about that. And then

Doug Downs (01:22):
I've—

Farzana Baduel (01:22):
Been thinking a little bit about the Labour Party conference here in the UK and Sir Keir's image challenges. And I know Dave is going to weigh in on some news from the US and possibly the world of AI. Can I start off with my, I want to hear about—

Doug Downs (01:35):
New York.

Farzana Baduel (01:36):
Yeah, you win. So it was my first time ever. Of course, I've been to New York many times. I love the city, I love New Yorkers. And it was my first time going to the United Nations General Assembly and I was there wearing a number of hats in terms of the charity boards that I sit on and some work. And to be honest, as a newbie it was really overwhelming because you have your United Nations’ own events, and then you've got all these different fringe events. So you've got this pay-to-play organization called Concordia that has these amazing events that they put on. So they had the Syrian president there for instance, and Goldie Hawn and others. And then you've got the Gates Foundation and they've got their track and then you've got the Clinton Foundation, they've got their track of events and then you've got all these fringe events you've got to wade through.

(02:21):
 And so it is quite difficult to navigate as a newbie. Of course, I got stuck all the time whenever you had President Trump sort of driving up and down Midtown and so you'd be stuck and you would be for about 30 minutes. And it wasn't just myself—President Macron and lots of others. President Erdoğan couldn't cross the road either. And what I was most impressed by was actually Unstoppable Africa. They had taken over the Marriott Marquis in Manhattan and they ran their own two-day conference. And I thought what was incredible about Unstoppable Africa—they didn't wait to be invited to any other stage. They built their own stage and it was their third time running.

The first story is about Keir. So I was following the news and Keir had a very important Labour Party conference. Sky ran a poll during Labour conference asking the members: how popular is Keir Starmer in your eyes?

(03:16):
 And he didn't fare too well, unfortunately. And of course a lot of the media leapt upon that story. But it's one thing not being popular in the country, it's quite another thing not being popular within your own party. And of course the die-hard Labour supporters who actually spend the money and take time off work to attend the conference—they're meant to be really your arch supporters. And if they're not happy, something's quite wrong.

So what did Keir do? He went on the offensive—no more nice guy. Called Farage racist. And that led to all sorts of fallouts, but it did feel a little bit more coordinated in terms of the response, not being on the back foot anymore. And of course it was always Labour and Conservative in the UK, and all of a sudden Conservative is not even in the conversation and it's all about Labour and Reform.

But I wanted to bring you in, Doug. I mean, did the news of the Labour Party conference cut through to North America or was it just a blip that you saw on your social media?

Doug Downs (04:17):
A little bit in Canada? Not in the US. No, it won't translate through, but it sounds like an old tale where a Labour leader is struggling with a Conservative leader who is being received as having more style. So sorry—Sir Starmer, want to get this right—has to show that he has that style and that he has that charisma from where I sit. Was he not elected in part because he wasn't Donald Trump, he was the calm, reasonable voice of reason. Was that not a big part of the reason he was elected?

Farzana Baduel (04:54):
It's interesting because we had quite the chaotic episode during the Conservative Party with our revolving doors of prime ministers. And yes, we wanted somebody boring and he came across as a bit of a John Major 2.0. As I think, David, I want to bring you in because David made this fantastic comment about the difference between a campaigner and someone who's good in government and they're not necessarily the same—

David Gallagher (05:23):
Thing. Yeah, it's hard to run something and it's a lot easier to run against something. And right now the UK has got a lot of challenges. So sometimes that requires a pretty sober look at policy. It requires careful consideration of what the options are, and that doesn't really lend itself to soundbites. I was thinking about the two dominant playbooks in politics right now and more from a comms perspective than a right versus left perspective. So on the Trump-Farage side, you really had the attention-and-rage playbook and it kind of exempts you from all previous norms and standards. You can kind of ignore the truth, you can say things—the hotter, the meaner, the more outlandish the better. And it kind of keeps you constantly in the news cycle, either by virtue of the policies that you're proposing, or in Trump's case enacting, or just by words. The other playbook is the more fact-and-reason playbook. And that appeals to I think everybody at some level, but it's not always that effective in a social media environment. So if you're asking what I thought about Keir's pushback, I don't know. And I think he did get a little bit of a blowback from using the racist language. But it is good to see him from a comms perspective more on the offensive and trying to shape the narrative rather than just respond to it.

Doug Downs (06:49):
Can we tug on that? The proclaiming your opponent is a racist. We saw this in the US election campaign where Donald Trump was called a Nazi repeatedly and it failed miserably.

David Gallagher (07:00):
I don't know if calling Trump a Nazi hurt Democrats. I honestly don't know.

Doug Downs (07:06):
Yeah, really?

David Gallagher (07:08):
Yeah. I honestly don't know that anybody who was leaning Democrat heard that and said, oh, that's a bit too far. I'm going to lean Trump. I never heard that happening. It may be somebody who was leaning Trump felt like he was getting ostracized or overly criticized. Maybe that kind of pushed him into that. But—

(07:29):
 I think unlike the US, in the UK there's still a fairly large section of marginal voters, of swing voters. And I think that that's always very surprising to American commentators, where really there's like two or three percent of the people that you can possibly persuade. And then maybe you're right, maybe language is a little more nuanced there. But anyway, that's my two pence. Farzana, I did want to ask a little bit more about the General Assembly. And while you were there, Doug and I were texting. We did joke when the escalator stopped, whether you did that by accident and then—but again, taking politics out of it, what's your take from a comms perspective? I mean I get it from national branding, kind of big international movements—that's a place to be. Is it a good environment for corporates? Is it possible to use that stage to push through an industry or corporate message, or is it too noisy, too crowded and no chance of actually cutting through the clutter?

Farzana Baduel (08:31):
I think it depends on the corporate, depends on their messaging, because it is very much the intersection of sustainability credentials. You also had Climate Week taking place at the same time. So if the corporate is leaning into its CSR, its sustainability, then it would make sense to have a presence there because it is very much the intersection of the not-for-profit sector, the development sector and government and policy. But I do think that actually it is really good to show up because just the eyeballs that you have in even hosting a fringe event—and you had these incredible organizations that were very targeted and it was quite extraordinary. You saw a lot of people having breakfasts at 7:00 AM and then another one at 8:00 AM and those sort of power breakfasts. Because I went to some of these places and I actually couldn't squeeze people in.

(09:25):
 So I did a seven o'clock and an 8:15 breakfast at this kind of swanky café in New York for breakfast. And you see all people doing the same thing because they're only in New York for those few days and they just have to stack everyone up. And also don't forget the power of serendipity. If you stay in the right hotel where other delegates are staying and you just go in the lift and there you have it—I dunno, senior advisor to the president of XYZ—you just don't know what doors there will open. And people are quite open and friendly to conversations. I mean, I had these incredible conversations with people from all over the world just waiting for Trump's sort of cavalcade to go through because you're waiting around for half an hour trying to cross the road and the police are blocking you. So you end up just chatting to people: "Oh, where are you from? What do you do?" And you exchange business cards and it's very New York. It was a fantastic—

Doug Downs (10:17):
Time. I do like what Unstoppable Africa is doing—owning its own space, creating its own channel. I'm really getting turned on to that as a PR and marketing pro.

David Gallagher (10:25):
I've never been to the General Assembly and I'm kind of embarrassed to say that, but you've talked me into thinking about it. I did in various capacities go to the World Economic Forum in Davos and it got to a point where I was worried that agencies that were trying to be there, be seen there, have introduced some sort of thought leadership there were really just sort of shouting into the wind and nobody would hear them. But you make a good point about being where the action is, the idea of serendipity. I happen to have met—little name dropping here—John McCain just before he ran for president against Obama, just me and him sitting on a bus going down the mountainside, and we had a really great conversation. So you've given me pause and maybe I'll think about it in the future, but I'm glad you had a successful—

Farzana Baduel (11:09):
And also just for PRs who work and support in leadership comms for CEOs and C-suites, those are the places you've got to go. You've got to figure out how to navigate those places and provide opportunities for your client or your boss to have those sort of conversations.

David Gallagher (11:26):
Hey, I had a couple of ideas to suggest and I don't know if we'll have time for them. So let me tell you quickly what I've been thinking about and you guys can tell me which ones you're most interested in. So for me, towards the middle of the week, the Hegseth-Trump Conference of Generals at Quantico Marine Base in Virginia, I thought was part performance, part meme-worthy and part shocking. So there's that. There was this suggestion that maybe the Energy Department of the US had banned my word actually—Politico's words, Politico's words. Yeah. Doug and I had a nice exchange about whether that was an actual ban or just a hint. So that's one thing. Another thing to talk about there is the government shutdown, which is huge, at least in the immediate future. And then Sora—the AI company introduced a new version of their text-to-video platform, which is really quite remarkable. And two, you can kind of tackle that in a lighthearted way, but other people are raising more serious questions about it. So if you had to choose which one should we start with and then we can see where that goes?

Farzana Baduel (12:38):
I'd say the video to text. I mean there's always this tsunami of AI tools that are just hitting us PR professionals, and it's just trying to figure out which one do you go with?

David Gallagher (12:47):
Let's go with that.

Farzana Baduel (12:49):
Worth our time to discuss.

David Gallagher (12:50):
So again, you've seen versions of this, you probably get—I even sent you both a link from Facebook, which now Meta has its own text-to-video prompt. I just asked them to animate our logo and it was kind of funny, kind of creepily accurate. It has Farzana kind of looking annoyed at me and Doug, I found that funny. But it was completely manipulated image too. And you can imagine how that could be misused.

Doug Downs (13:23):
The tsunami of AI-generated results that's coming. And I work as a podcast agency, so we see it all the time. I'm always looking to create videos faster, simpler—AI, awesome. But one negative. Let me tell you a quick story about the negative AI. There is a production company in the podcast world. I think they're based in Australia. I won't name them because I know they're very litigious, but they produce 3,000 podcast episodes per week all with AI. The ideas are AI, the scripts are AI, the voices are AI, the personalities—Nigel Hawthorne—AI. All of it costs them a dollar per episode to crank these things out, they sell advertising within it. They did an episode—this is one example of how horribly inaccurate AI can be. They did an episode on the history of Sydney, Australia. Things are going along fine until about the 10-minute mark when suddenly the host inexplicably starts talking about Sydney Sweeney. That's how bad some of this is. And that'll cause a danger not to the big companies or the big podcasts because they have their audiences. But the smaller independent podcasts—we're in a world where we're trying to create more voice, more democratic approach. Anybody can own their own channel, but the smaller independent podcasts fight for audience. And to have to fight an AI army is death—

(14:48):
 Because eventually the AI army is going to knock it out and the listener is left with myths and disinformation as a result.

David Gallagher (14:56):
Well, I want to read something from Catherine Arrow. She's a practitioner and an educator based in New Zealand. For decades, I have been an advocate for technology for the marvelous things it can do, for the ways it can improve lives and create opportunities. I've celebrated and amplified its promise because I believed and still believe such tools can serve humanity. But what confronts us now—and she was talking specifically about this Sora 2 technology—this technology that reshapes our human world beyond recognition. And it's wielded by not disinterested stewards, but humans driven by profit, not progress. And she raises some pretty profound questions about how are we going to manage this technology? What does it mean about our ability to discern between objective reality and maybe artificial or manufactured reality?

Farzana Baduel (15:45):
I worry. I worry about the scam artists out there, how they'll scam the most vulnerable members of our society. And I also worry about us as PRs. Should we be thinking about how can we help the educational sector in ensuring that media literacy is embedded, and not just for children—because actually they will grow up in this sort of more AI-aware, digitally native world—but also for our elderly in our society as well, who are often alone and do not have that sort of interaction with people that lets them understand how fast and rapid the ascent of AI technology is in terms of how real it is. And perhaps you can imagine like an elderly woman sitting at home at Christmas and thinking she's getting a call from her son asking for—

Doug Downs (16:38):
Money. I don't like regulation as a rule, but wouldn't it be great if there was some sort of code on material saying this percentage of this video, this script, this audio was generated using AI?

Farzana Baduel (16:52):

But it's difficult to police because back in the day with influencers, remember there was this whole regulation around them that if you're selling a product or you have a commercial relationship with a brand, you have to make it sort of known on your Instagram posts. And then of course a lot of them would either just ignore it or they would circumvent it by having 50 odd hashtags with one tiny hat stack in the middle, which is hashtag ad. And so it's difficult to not only bring in the regulation, but it's also difficult to police.

Doug Downs (17:21):

I can't wait for the first AI police or the first AI politician.

Farzana Baduel (17:25):

Well,

David Gallagher (17:25):

Yeah,

(17:27):

I'm sure there's one in development. Well, we could probably go on this. I had one thing I just wanted to plug in, but Doug, you've been teasing this ostrich story now and and I are desperate to hear it, but I just wanted, there's a guy that I respect a lot here in the UK named Chris Pratt. He works in an agency called Burst and Big agency, but he's also done a lot of volunteer work on what he calls the crisis and climate. And he made me aware of what he's calling or what his group is calling the climate replay. And it equips communicators, campaigners journalists, and researchers with fresh tools for navigating the complexity and strengthening climate discourse in an age cultural divide. I just think it's an interesting thing that there are people thinking about all of these issues and thoughtful ways and I'd hope to give that a little bit more attention. Maybe we can in the future, but you got to tell us what's going on with the ostriches. I still don't get it.

Doug Downs (18:17):

Okay. Well if you haven't heard this story, you've had your head in the sand. Back in December of last year, a British Columbia, which is in western Canada, ostrich farm had a rough patch when dozens of birds died of avian flu, bird flu. By January of this year, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency said the remaining flock about 400 tall feathered sprinters, dinosaurs had to go. The farmers pushed back pointing out the obvious, the birds still standing or perfectly healthy strutting around like nothing ever happened. Soon the story went from local farm drama to international oddity animal lovers. Believe it or not, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And Dr. Oz auditioned his ostrich bodyguards. Since then, the ostriches have stayed alive and well waiting while lawyers fla their wings in courts. And today's the big moment the Supreme Court of Canada is taking in final submissions and will decide if these birds get to keep running laps in their pen or if the food inspection agency finally makes them run out of time on. David, I want to put you in a quick spot. You're the PR leaders for the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. These ostriches now are perfectly healthy, but the owners defied an order saying to call the herd. What's your narrative and what are your messages?

David Gallagher (19:35):

I always defer to farzana on these things.

Farzana Baduel (19:39):

I would, if I was there, might be scrambling around this thing. Is there a review process? Is there an appeal process? I sort of slightly backtrack out of the awful position of being seen to cull these gorgeous animals that the country's just got behind and it's, gosh, it's a difficult one. Do they have an appeal process?

Doug Downs (20:01):

This is it. Supreme Court is our highest court in land

Farzana Baduel (20:04):

That as high as could gett,

Doug Downs (20:06):

Oh God,

David Gallagher (20:07):

Let the ostriches live, let the free the ostriches.

Doug Downs (20:11):

But you worked for the CFIA, you've got to develop the messaging. This is just in case the Supreme Court says called herd. What would your messaging be?

Farzana Baduel (20:20):

Well, you know, could always go rogue and get one of your social media managers to then do this little protest on X saying save the ostriches.

David Gallagher (20:30):

That's probably what I would do if I couldn't bury it in bureaucracy, which is what Farzana was suggesting, just let it string out. Then yeah, I'd probably suggest a leaked rogue campaign.

Doug Downs (20:45):

I hope the sensible thing is to fine the owners some monetary fine and let the birds live. That seems to be the cogent approach, but who knows what the Supreme Court's going to decide.

Farzana Baduel (20:59):

But it's a great PR opportunity for some benevolent sort of philanthropist to come and say, well, I've got this huge multi acre farm and the OSS can live their happy life and then they can live Ooz

Doug Downs (21:11):

Doing. That's exactly what Dr. Ooz was saying.

Farzana Baduel (21:15):

Yeah, those ostriches will be living at large better than us.

David Gallagher (21:19):

Well, you want to take any words of the day to take us out with Doug? Or do you want one of us to do that?

Farzana Baduel (21:23):

Can I do one actually?

David Gallagher (21:25):

Yeah.

Farzana Baduel (21:26):

So a sober moment in the UK we had an awful terrorist incident that happened at a synagogue in Manchester, which is a city here in the UK. And the Jewish community, the British Jewish community is a very small community. I think it's perhaps half a percentage. And I've got many Jewish friends who have told me for a number of months alongside Muslim friends about the rise in antisemitism and Islamophobia. And it was incredibly sad to hear what happened. And so my thoughts or our thoughts are with our Jewish colleagues, their families, their communities, and also I would say when something horrific like this happens, it's really lovely to be able to reach out to your Jewish friends and colleagues and just to check in with them. Because actually when you are a minority and something horrific like this happens, this is the time to show your support, to reach out. And it's particularly touching when somebody from outside of your community does it. And that is a wonderful gesture of kindness and empathy as prs. It is our ability to empathize. So that's

Doug Downs (22:42):

Amen.

Farzana Baduel (22:43):

A note I believe you with.

Doug Downs (22:44):

Amen.

Farzana Baduel (22:45):

Thanks,

David Gallagher (22:45):

Farzana. Good one.

Doug Downs (22:46):

Good one. That's all the time we have. Hope you enjoyed the discussion. Special thanks as always to producers Emily Page, David Olijade, the week UnSpun is a co-production of Curzon Public Relations Stories and Strategies and Folgate Advisors. If you'd like to join the Advisory Club, mega Chat, please get in touch with David on LinkedIn. See you next week. Have a great weekend.