Susie Wiles and the Cost of Poor Media Strategy

Doug Downs (00:04): Hello and welcome to the Week UnSpun. I'm Doug Downs. I'm joining you from Canada's Rocky Mountains.

David Gallagher (00:10): I'm David Gallagher joining you from sunny blue sky London.

Farzana Baduel (00:14): And my name is Farzana Baduel and I am joining from the beautiful island of Sri Lanka.

David Gallagher (00:19): You've been there a long time and we'll look forward to hearing a little bit more about it in the show, but we want to get right into it. We are literally steaming into the festive season, but of course the news never stops. Now just for a quick outline of the show today, I was really hoping that maybe for once we could avoid talking about the US president or Donald or what's going on in the White House, but of course that's not the case. It's been a chaotic, crazy week in Washington. So we're going to get some of that out of the way first with actually a couple of different stories that we think have some PR analysis opportunities. Doug's going to take us there. Farzana noted a conversation between Sir Martin Sorrell and a woman named Sarah Waddington who leads the UK PR trade association about whether PR is dead or not.

(01:06): So we'll have a conversation about that. And then we've got to look ahead at a special episode of the Stories and Strategies podcast set, I believe, in 2035. So we'll have a sneak preview of that. But Doug, once again, you've got the lead story. So take us to DC if you would.

Doug Downs (01:23): That's another steak that you owe me. I was in the grocery store and I was picking up my weekly Vanity Fair magazine, of course, which I do all the time. This Susie Wiles interview. Oh my goodness. Susie Wiles, you probably know her. She's President Trump's chief of staff. She gave a series of interviews to Vanity Fair magazine offering rare, candid insight into the inner workings of Trump's circle. Across those conversations, she spoke openly about Trump's personality and leadership style, as well as about internal dynamics involving other political figures and advisers. She was dithering. In describing Trump, she said he has an alcoholic's personality, explaining that he does not drink, but displays an all consuming intensity and belief that he can handle anything. Wiles also commented on other figures in Trump's orbit, including Vice President JD Vance, who she described as having once been a conspiracy theorist.

(02:18): Those remarks, Vanity Fair drew widespread attention with critics and supporters alike debating not only what she said, but whether such candor was appropriate. So here are the eight things that I saw. Number one, she was treating a long form media interview like a relationship interview, and that is a mistake. Number two mistake that I saw from Susie Wiles, and I'm coming at this from 25 years of media training. She did exceptionally weak, if any, media or audience analysis. It was never clear who she was trying to reach and without a defined audience, even thoughtful explanations tend to drift. It's like writing a love letter to whom it may concern. You got to do audience analysis. No message map or structure. That was mistake number three. You have your issue, your narrative, your set of key messages guiding your answers, and then supporting facts that all line up.

(03:13): So you're always hitting that one narrative all the time. Number four, sound bites without control. Oh, she spoke memorably all right, but she had no control over what sound bites were going to land. She was just kind of speaking and winging it. You've got to go into it with a bit of structure, particularly if you're going to offer sound bites. Mistake number five, ignoring pause, answer, stop. Pause before giving your answer. Answer the question and then stop talking. She blurred the line between values, attitudes, and opinions as well. At the apex, values are things that tend not to move. If we speak to values, they're generally agreeable. Children, safety, health care, quality of life. Those are values we can agree on. Opinions are at the very bottom and they're very flimsy. And then attitudes are more directional, sometimes funneling down into opinion or funneling up into values. Mistake number seven.

(04:10): She confused candor with wandering. Look, keep it real in a media interview. Be candid. Be authentic and be prepared. Her lack of structure caused honest reflections to drift into unfinished thoughts. And mistake number eight, structural role confusion. This one's a bit subtle. She shifted between being the insider, the interpreter, and the narrator without clearly defining her role in these interviews. That created a subtle tension that audiences sense immediately in long form media. So David, Farzana, those are the eight structural things as a longtime media trainer that I pulled from the interview. Nonpartisan, those are the mistakes that I saw. What did you see?

David Gallagher (04:58): I think the overarching issue I had with these 11 interviews that she sat down for over the past few months was I really don't know what the purpose was. I don't know why you spend that kind of time and capital cultivating a story that seems to have, at best, no purpose and, at worst, some potentially damaging messages, not necessarily for the president. I'm guessing he was probably OK with how he was portrayed, but she really took some shots at her colleagues in the cabinet. So I just don't really understand the point to it.

Farzana Baduel (05:31): I totally agree. I don't understand why they did it. For so long, the rhetoric from the camp has been fake news. And they seem to do rather well with more long form narratives such as podcasts where they can contextualize their comments. And what I don't understand is why did they deviate from what actually has worked quite well for them in terms of direct social media content, direct speeches, and podcasts if they were to get interviewed. So I don't understand why they decided to take that risk and go with the Vanity Fair interview. So yeah, I don't get the thinking behind it.

David Gallagher (06:12): Maybe closer to home in the PR community. Farzana, you'd mentioned this conversation that Sir Martin Sorrell had. He was the founder and creator of WPP until he left to start something new, but he's still finding a way to make headlines. And he had a conversation on UK radio with Sarah Waddington who chairs the PRCA, the UK PR trade association, about whether or not PR was dead. And you spotted that and thanks for bringing it to my attention. And Doug's probably not reading these things as closely in Canada as we are, but what's your take? And I know you've got a high level view as the president elect for CIPR as well.

Farzana Baduel (06:51): Well, it's bad enough trying to navigate jet lag waking up in Sri Lanka. And I wake up and I love PRWeek because it really keeps you in the know about what's happening in the industry. And I wake up and I see this headline, Martin Sorrell, there's no such thing as PR anymore. That's not what I want to read in the morning when I'm feeling jet lagged. So the WPP founder, Martin Sorrell, has declared the death of PR during a debate on BBC Radio 4's Today program with the PRCA chief executive, Sarah Waddington. And this was an extraordinary interview. And I don't know if I can access the BBC here from Sri Lanka, but as soon as I go back to the UK, the first thing I'm going to do is listen to that story. And I would ask those who are in the UK, please do listen to it. It is on Radio 4.

(07:41): Now what happened is that he said there's no such thing as PR, arguing that the discipline has morphed into online content and social media. And according to him, it's morphed as creating content at scale, personalizing visualization, and copywriting at huge scale is becoming more and more important. Now Sarah, for those who know Sarah Waddington, I'm so glad she was there batting and being in our corner. So she argued that storytelling has always been at the heart of public relations. And she said PR remains vital in helping organizations communicate who they are, what they stand for, and why people should care. And so the question is, is PR dead or has it just changed its name? Now this made me feel quite furious actually because people are going to listen to Martin Sorrell because he is extraordinarily successful, albeit perhaps not as successful recently. And his words are going to carry weight.

(08:39): And of course, it's that age old issue that as PRs, are we not doing a good job in terms of doing PR for our industry? And forget the public not knowing what we do and potentially clients and C suite stakeholders. Now it appears that our marketing and advertising brothers and sisters have no idea what we do. And it's that sort of constant putting us in this box that we are just media relations people. And of course, as the CIPR states, PR is the strategic management of information that flows between an organization and its publics. It doesn't say media relations. Media relations is just one of multiple channels in the tactical realm. And of course there's layers of the strategy as well as the tactics. And so it is infuriating. I'm glad Sarah gave him what for, but I wanted to bring you in, Doug, with your thoughts, because I mean, I know probably storm in a teacup from your perspective across the pond, but it's making waves in the UK.

Doug Downs (09:39): Well, as a North American, I still have an opinion, even if I don't fully understand who he is.

(09:45): I think he's being a provocateur. And we just talked about Susie Wiles not having a narrative or a particular emotional stance that was strategic that she wanted to put out. But in this case, he did have a narrative and he certainly evoked an emotional reaction with the headline. So from a public relations standpoint, well done, Sir Martin Sorrell. You're a wonderful PR practitioner that way. But underlying this, there's something to this. One of the biggest problems for us in PR, Farzana, you and I have talked about this on the podcast Stories and Strategies. I could never explain to my mom what I do for a living. We still can't explain to our moms what we do, and that's a problem. If we can't define it, then how are others supposed to define it?

Farzana Baduel (10:34): Well, in essence, we're about earning trust. And Sorrell also went on to say, because Sarah retorted it and said, "Well, the media's becoming increasingly fragmented. The role of PRs is increasingly important." And then he responded and said, "The media is not becoming fragmented." So I don't know whether he was just being a contrarian and just looking to rile up the PR industry.

David Gallagher (10:56): Haven't seen you this riled up ever.

Farzana Baduel (10:59): I find it so irritating and I'm so glad that he had Sarah who really went for him. So well done, Sarah.

David Gallagher (11:06): I'm going to go where I'm going to go very cautiously. And I have been on panels with him before. He is provocative. He doesn't mind picking a fight. And in some ways he was kind of making his own point really in that he's being discussed right now and maybe that is how he sees public relations. So I acknowledge all that and I thought Sarah did an excellent job rebutting him and flying the flag for the industry. Here's where I'm going to maybe be a little controversial. I think he has a point in that PR as a marketing discipline is losing ground. And I think we are losing ground. And I think we've probably never been on as firm a territory as we would like. There's always been this schism in the PR world between those who see this as a sales and marketing function, basically at heart to drive purchase or intent to purchase, and those who see it in a different light, building organizational value, creating trust with stakeholders, helping to create a license to operate through consent and collaboration with stakeholders.

(12:09): I think both of those things are true, but I think most of the money has been on the marketing side. That's how the holding companies came into existence. That's how investment has flowed in. It's how a lot of the client money has been spent. So he is raising a question that I think we could do a little better job of answering. It's probably not going to be on a three minute interview on a live radio show, but I think this is something we need to take seriously as people who are committed to the PR community, whether it's an industry or a profession. And I think we do need to see that the way things are changing, the way the media landscape is changing, whether it's fragmenting or consolidating, the way algorithms are driving what we see, the way people have less trust in expertise or institutions than they used to is changing things really quickly.

(12:56): And I think we need to adapt to those changes and make sure that our role is understood by us much less even before we get to try and make our parents or other people understand it. And I don't think we've done a great job of doing that.

Farzana Baduel (13:10): True. And David, before you move on to the next story, I just wanted to add one final thing. A couple of days ago in Colombo, I went to go and deliver a talk with the PR Association in Sri Lanka, which may I add has just recently set up around 18 months ago because they realized that marketing and advertising had their own and they understood that PR is distinct and therefore set up their PR association. So PR is not dead. It is actually reaching, in my opinion, the golden era for PR. And I think Martin Sorrell's formative years when we were the poor cousins is a very different time to what is coming for us. And I think our time is going to be now actually.

David Gallagher (13:57): I am afraid that's all the time we have. This is my last time before I break for the festive break. So have a very Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, or whatever you might be celebrating next week.

Doug Downs (14:09): And Farzana and I are back next week on Boxing Day. We might go live to David from the buy and sell wherever when he's doing all of his shopping. As always, thanks for checking us out today. Thanks to superstar producers Emily Page and Solomon Ibeh. The Week UnSpun is a co production of Folgate Advisors, Stories and Strategies Podcasts, and Curzon Public Relations. Want to catch the recording? You can check it out on David's LinkedIn channel, I think Farzana's Instagram, her X, my personal X, Curzon's YouTube, the Stories and Strategies Podcast YouTube as well. And as always, one final thought. Remember, you are worthy of connection exactly as you are, so is everybody else. Have a great weekend.