Talked Over and Ignored: PR Occupational Hazards for Women

Emily Page (00:02):

In her timeless poem, Maya Angelou spoke of a caged bird whose spirit longed for freedom, but whose wings were bound. Today we explore a story of a bird song and how it mirrors the journey of those whose voices longed to be heard.

Doug Downs (00:21):

In Caged Bird, Maya Angelou describes a bird trapped in a cage. Its wings bound and it's flight restricted. But despite its confinement, the bird sings. It's not from freedom, but from longing, A longing to break free, to soar beyond its limitations. The bird's song is so beautiful, filled with hope and yearning, though it can only circle within the confines of its cage. It's a song of defiance, of strength, and of resilience. The bird does not stop singing even as it faces the unyielding bars of its prison. It continues to reach for something greater, something beyond what it can see, knowing that its song carries a message of freedom, even though it cannot yet fully embrace it. Now, imagine the Bird's song not as a cry for physical escape, but as a call for recognition, for space to be heard, for the freedom to rise. For women in public relations, this song echoes loudly.

(01:21):

Though they make up the majority of the industry, their voices often remain unheard. In leadership rules, much like the caged bird, their work is vital, their contributions invaluable, but they still find themselves confined by systems and structures that limit their rise. Like Angela's caged bird, these women continue to sing their song of excellence and innovation despite the barriers they face. Their voices are powerful, but they're too often overlooked by the larger industry Today on stories and strategies. How exactly do we open that door? How do we ensure women have the opportunities to lead to be heard and to shape the future of public relations?

(02:21):

My name is Doug Downs.

Farzana Baduel (02:23):

Hi, my name is Farzana Baduel, and our guest this week is Sue Heuman joining us today from Edmonton, Canada. Hi, Sue.

Sue Heuman (02:32):

Hi Farzana. Hi Doug.

Farzana Baduel (02:33):

How are things in Edmonton?

Sue Heuman (02:35):

Oh, pretty good. We're having a lovely spring day. The sun is out. You can't beat it.

Farzana Baduel (02:41):

Now, Sue, you are a master communicator with decades of experience. You co-founded Focus Communications in 2002 and 20 years later in 2022, you were honored with I ABC's highest recognition, the fellow designation for your contributions to the communications profession and leadership in IABC. You also hold the Master Communicator designation from IABC. Wow, Sue, that's a lot.

Doug Downs (03:10):

Awesome to have you, Sue.

Sue Heuman (03:12):

Thanks so much, guys, I really appreciate it.

Doug Downs (03:14):

So Sue, you and I have known each other for a bit. Women make up two thirds of the PR industry. What's the problem?

Sue Heuman (03:25):

Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, look at this call. Women make up two thirds of this call as well,

Doug Downs (03:32):

Right?

Sue Heuman (03:37):

I think you're specifically talking about women in leadership positions, in communication and so forth. I think that we are underrepresented and have been for a long time, and for me, there's a couple of things at play here. I think one, it is the sector that we're in around the C-suite table. It isn't always given the level of importance as a strategic partner that it should have. So sometimes it's hard to even get that seat at the table. But secondly, I think that there's just a lack of opportunities for women to really showcase their abilities at the C-suite level. And this is historic, and it's not just in our sector, but for example, leaders tend to hire people who look just like them, and that affects a lot of people, not just women, not just in this sector. So there's that. I think women also don't play the game as well as men do in the sense of we're not the kind that'll grab a couple of beers after work or go golfing on a Friday afternoon. And I'm generalizing here. I realize,

Doug Downs (04:50):

Well, men have time. We

Sue Heuman (04:52):

Have time to do it right. Well, I think it's just seemed more intrinsic to the work that men have to do is this part of it is this relationship building, and women tend not to have those opportunities as much. I remember way back when, like I'm talking, in the 1980s, I was invited to join a monthly breakfast group called The Old Girls Club because it was the opposite of the old boys club, and it was women leaders who were trying to connecting and make those relationships and those connections happen because we know a lot of business happens on an informal basis. Lots of connections, lots of relationships happen, and so if you're playing the game, you move up the ladder. If you can't play the game, you're not invited to the game. You don't even know what the game is. Let in on that little secret. Pretty hard to do.

Farzana Baduel (05:48):

And Sue, I was quite interested because when I saw some stats that two thirds of the industry are women and then it just falls off a cliff when it goes into senior levels. Do you think there's also an element of in your early years in your career, women in pr, it's about what you know and later it's about who in terms of getting those senior positions. And if we are in the evenings having a disproportionate share of caring responsibilities, looking after kids, elderly parents, and we're not out there networking on the golf course, making those relationships. I remember going to a lot of these networking events and there are hardly any women that sort of, at the hour, six to 8:00 PM you go to a panel discussion, you have a drink, you have a chat. Who do you work for? Oh, there's a vacancy. Oh, I'd love to apply. I mean, that sort of serendipitous aspects of career progression just isn't open to women if they are rushing home for their sort of caring responsibilities.

Sue Heuman (06:47):

Yeah, a hundred percent. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because it's really hard then as a woman to walk into a room like that and suddenly start chatting people up. It is a very different dynamic. And so I think the other thing at play here is that there aren't enough mentors, role models for women who can bring them in, bring them into the club, bring them into the secret space, introduce them, make sure that they have those networking opportunities that you speak of. So mentorship is huge, and I've been fortunate to have been a mentor for lots of people over the years, and I personally find it hugely rewarding just to, like I said, pass it along, pay it forward.

Farzana Baduel (07:35):

Do you think there are lots of women who help each other out? Because sometimes I hear of others who say, well actually my best bosses have been men, and some women can be critical of other women. Do you think that sometimes some women can have a bit of a scarcity mindset? There's only room for one or two women at the top, so let's get those sharp elbows out and make sure we are the ones who get to the top. What have you experienced over the years and have you experienced any changes over the years?

Sue Heuman (08:04):

Yeah, you know what? Definitely early on it was very much that. I do think it is changing though. I do think that people are recognizing that we need to make space for all manner of individuals at the executive table. They a range of ethnicities and diverse backgrounds. I mean, those diverse perspectives are what really make the C-suite hum in my view. And if it becomes an echo chamber of the same people saying the same things, you can quickly get behind. This is a global economy as we are seeing play out in spades right now, certainly in North America and in other parts of the world. And so having those diverse experiences, having those people bring a new perspective can really help with things like customer development, sourcing suppliers, well, I say that three times fast. All those kinds of things, those relationships that come maybe from a different place and can move your business along instead of being that echo chamber.

Doug Downs (09:13):

It does kind of feel like men get cut a lot of slack at the leadership level. If a man, he is harsh, it's okay, he's a teddy bear on the inside. And if a man is soft spoken, oh no, no, no, he can get tough when he needs to be tough. Whereas women like they're Hillary Clinton or they're Kamala Harris, it's like they just get cast in that light. Does it feel like that as a female leader, that's how it looks to a male?

Sue Heuman (09:38):

Yeah, a hundred percent. I would say that we also get judged a lot. We get judged for what we wear, how we speak, how loud are we, how assertive are we? If we're too flexible, we're too soft. You're not leadership material. If you're too harsh, you are not projecting the right culture of the organization. We get judged a lot on a lot of levels. Judged by who? Men, but also the women, I would say. Yeah, truly. I think sometimes we can be harsh critics of our female compatriots. And I would say let's ever just lighten up a little bit. Let's just lighten up.

Farzana Baduel (10:24):

Sue. What advice would you give to men for them to sort of step up and support women in the workplace? I'll give you an example. I was at an event yesterday and I had a man talk over me and I was the only woman on the panel and I was the only one that was talked over me. And do you know, I didn't even notice. It happens all the time. And actually there was a man on my panel who stood up for me and said, I noticed that and it's completely unacceptable. And I looked at it, I thought, what a fantastic man. Now, what advice would you give to men out there who also, a lot of them would have sympathy because they have daughters, they're mothers, their wives. What advice would you give them in order to support women? And have you ever been talked over? Because for me, it seems to be an occupational hazard.

Sue Heuman (11:09):

Yes, absolutely. Talked over or just blatantly ignored where you're trying to get the chair's attention and say, I have something to contribute here. Men are more likely my experience, men are more likely to just so of speak up and say what they need to say, and women will wait for permission or wait to be called upon. And then if that never happens, then I guess you just take your good ideas and you go back to your office. So advice to men I think is, well, firstly, advice to anybody. God gives us two ears in one mouth, use them accordingly. I think just listen more. Listen and be open to hearing perspectives. And then the other thing is, and again, this is not necessarily a gender thing, but if there are people around the table who haven't said anything, call on them. Because sometimes people are reluctant to voice their ideas in front of a group or they don't know when the right time is to jump in, so call on them.

Doug Downs (12:10):

Has that happened to you in a meeting where you've raised an idea and it kind of got glossed over?

Sue Heuman (12:15):

Oh yeah. Lots of times.

Doug Downs (12:16):

Yeah,

Sue Heuman (12:16):

Lots of times, yeah. And it's really,

Doug Downs (12:21):

Give me an example. Give me an example of a time where that's at.

Sue Heuman (12:23):

I'll give you an example. I would, so one time I was at a board table meeting and I had an item on the agenda and the chair of the meeting when it came my turn, looked at the agenda item and just said, yeah, we're not doing that. And then that was it. There was no discussion, no opportunity to talk through the idea and so forth. I mean, yeah, it's happened, so you look shocked duck

Doug Downs (12:52):

That. It's just cast aside. I mean, it's 2025, right? We've been talking, I joined the workforce in the eighties and we were talking about this stuff

Sue Heuman (13:00):

That's a half a century

Doug Downs (13:01):

Ago.

Sue Heuman (13:02):

So to be fair, that happened in the nineties. So maybe we hadn't progressed as far hasn't happened as much,

Doug Downs (13:08):

But it still happens today, just like talking over a female leader.

Sue Heuman (13:12):

It still happens today. It happens a lot of times I find when you're presenting your ideas to a group and they'll get dismissed or they'll say, well, what does everybody else think? Which normally you would say, yeah, sure, I'm open to input. Except that oftentimes your idea, your position based on years of experience having seen this a time or two gets talked over and suddenly we're going in a different direction. They don't circle back and say, how do you feel about that? Is that still going to work for us? Right? It's just, yeah, let's go with Bob's idea. Oh, okay, cool.

Farzana Baduel (13:51):

Do you think there's a confidence gap, Sue? Because you often hear about recruiters who often say that men would apply for roles if they've got, I don't know, 60% of requirements women would really need about 95% before they feel able to submit their cvs. What would you say about, is there a confidence gap that exists? If so, what advice would you give to women and men to try and close that confidence gap?

Sue Heuman (14:23):

Yeah, for sure. And I have heard that. I've actually seen that where you get some pretty bold applications from folks who aren't even remotely qualified, and yet you have to beg someone who is supremely qualified to even consider it. I think a couple of things. First of all, consider your whole life experience. So someone who manages the house, maybe you're a single mom, you manage the house and the kids all on your own. My gosh, you have incredible organizational skills. You have incredible priority setting. You have incredible communication skills, so consider your whole self. Don't just think about the work related experience. You have life experience to bring, and you can demonstrate that without, if you're not comfortable referencing your personal life, say you can just speak to how you would solve a situation where two colleagues were disagreeing with one another, a k, a, your kids fighting over a toy, but you don't have to say it's your kids, right? It's the same skills. So think about your whole person when you go to apply for a job. And secondly, some wise advice that I got is you have nothing to respond to until someone makes you an offer, so go for it. If you get an offer, then you've got something to talk about

Doug Downs (15:47):

Is I call it the non-linear aspect of a woman's career, the family kids, and whether it's six weeks or whether it's my wife took 10 years off, which we were lucky to be able to do. Is that the big interrupter here or is it way more complicated than that? I'm sensing it's the latter, and yet I confess I do see that nonlinear thing as the real big hurdle.

Sue Heuman (16:13):

I really believe it depends on the environment you're in and how evolved they are, to be honest. So for women who have a 10 year gap and they want to get back to the workforce, that's where you really need to draw on your whole person, financial management, all those kinds of skills that you have running a household scheduling, good lord,

(16:36):

Yeah, children can be a disruption, as you say, in the sense that you do take time. I took six months off with each of my kids way back in the day I happened to be in a union environment where my position was guaranteed. A lot of women are not in that environment. A lot of women, you take six months off, you come back and you suddenly find you're in a lower position, or you have to start from the bottom and work your way up again. So definitely you don't have the same opportunities. But also I would say that childcare, childcare perceptions fall disproportionately on women, and we don't talk about working dads and how hard it can be for them, but I think that we need to get over it. It seems like it's a very old trope. I feel like there is more equality now in a lot of households where you can say, I have to take a meeting at five o'clock. Can you go make sure you're home so that we can get the kids from daycare or whatever. We have two dogs. We do this with our dogs. We schedule, make sure that we're here for the dog.

(17:47):

So I feel like it is changing. It definitely was a bigger issue, I would say in the eighties, nineties era.

Farzana Baduel (17:56):

You mentioned that one of the issues is that public relations or the practitioners in our industry, they're not taking seriously enough to get to board level. You see a lot of compositions of board and it tends to be a marketing person there, but do you feel that actually we're entering potentially into a bit of a golden era where because of all the turmoil in the world, the risk to reputation, the increasingly complex geopolitical and culture wars are actually PR is as important as marketing on the board? And actually previously, perhaps we were reduced to a bit of media outreach, a bit of events, and now actually we've got this new digital realm with data backing us that actually we may be entering the best sort of time off the profession, if one can call it that.

Sue Heuman (18:46):

Yeah, I think the pandemic bore that out. Suddenly there were companies facing issues, reputational issues, staffing, employment conflicts where people are working from home or they're uncomfortable coming to the workplace, those sorts of things. And I think that that's when communication PR really kind of had a golden moment to say, this is what we do. This is our jam. Unfortunately, it's like one of those situations, almost like emergency preparedness that unless you're in the middle of a forest fire, you forget where the fire extinguisher is. And so now here we are, it's several years on, and I do feel it sliding back again into more of a tactical role. I do feel that we have gone back to being perceived as order takers. In other words, I want you to send out this news release. It needs to go out on Tuesday. Make sure you hit these. That's my job,

Doug Downs (19:44):

Dave. It's our job to provide the proof points on it, right? To hit the KPIs. That's the point here,

Sue Heuman (19:50):

And I really think that that is where we can make huge strides, to be honest, is making sure that we have sufficient data, that we're speaking the language of business, that we are hitting on the bottom line issues that impact the C-suite. Let's stop counting things. Let's stop counting the number of news releases, sent likes on social media pressures, all those,

(20:16):

Right? Let's talk about the outcomes. So a great way to think about this is, yes, maybe you've pushed something out on social. You've got 57,000 likes, big deal from that, you've got 30% click-through rate. Ooh, that's pretty good. But now all you've got is people on your website. Okay, cool. Let's talk about the conversion rate. How many of those people actually bought something or engaged or took another step, contacted the business For some, that's the metric we need. We need to show that what we're doing is impacting the bottom line, and we can do that. We just have to be open to thinking about it that way.

Farzana Baduel (20:58):

Do you think as an industry, we have an aversion to data that it's something that we close our eyes and don't want to talk about? Because we do have a funny relationship with measurement? We do.

Sue Heuman (21:11):

I think it's the causation versus correlation argument that gets us caught up. We are more concerned about demonstrating causation. So can we categorically say that something we did caused something to happen? There's just too many influences in life. I think we need to, well, that's important. It is very important. I think we can also show correlation. If you've put something out there and suddenly foot traffic in your store increases by 50%, I think you can probably look to it and say, well, what happened? What changed for the foot traffic to increase? And if your marketing, PR communication efforts are part of that, then you can take part of that win. We don't have to have such a direct causation line. I mean, if we could, it'd be great. But that has been our nemesis since the beginning, is that causation? Because so many other parts of an organization come into play when it comes to things like a sale. There's the whole sales department, and they usually claim the wins. But if we didn't get the people in the door, who are you selling to? So I think we need to start to look at where we are putting our efforts, what impact it's having, and then start to talk about that impact in front of the C-suite.

Doug Downs (22:33):

Sue, great to see you. Thanks so much for your time today.

Sue Heuman (22:36):

Oh, wow. That went fast.

Doug Downs (22:38):

It did.

Sue Heuman (22:38):

Yeah. Let's do it again.

Doug Downs (22:41):

Oh, hey, Sue. In our previous episode, our guest, Carmine Gallo, he left a question for you.

Carmine Gallo (22:48):

What is one life hack that you've learned or adopted in the last 10 years that you wish you would've learned earlier in your career?

Sue Heuman (23:00):

Selling your ideas to leadership. I think that sometimes as communication people, we are hugely creative. We come up, Hey, I've got this great idea, and you're in love with your idea, but you can't properly sell it to management. You can't demonstrate why it's going to make a difference. Maybe it's a catchphrase of some kind you've come up with and it's absolutely brilliant, but if you have no business case for it, it's going to fall flat. So I learned very on that. Selling your idea to management, selling your idea to your colleagues on the leadership team is about as important as the idea itself, because if it falls flat, it'll never see the light of day.

Farzana Baduel (23:38):

Love it. Now your turn. Sue, what question would you like to leave behind for our next

Sue Heuman (23:43):

Guest? So we live in crazy times. I want to know how your next guest is dealing with misinformation and disinformation in their organization.

Doug Downs (23:56):

Aha. Good one. Good one. And how they're tracking it too, and how they're proving it

Sue Heuman (24:00):

Well, all of those things. How are you managing around the misinformation, disinformation that is rampant in society these days?

Doug Downs (24:08):

Awesome. Thanks again for your time today, Sue.

Farzana Baduel (24:10):

Thank

Sue Heuman (24:10):

You. It's my pleasure.

Farzana Baduel (24:12):

Bye, Sue. Here are the top three things we got from Sue Heuman in this episode. Number one, the importance of relationships and mentorship. Sue highlighted the challenges women face in building informal relationships such as networking after work, or joining social groups like the Old Boys Club, which can hinder career advancement. She stresses the need for mentorship and role models to help women get those opportunities to network and advance. Number two, the double standards in leadership. Sue discussed the double standards women face when it comes to leadership roles such as being judged more harshly for their appearance, assertiveness, or communication style. Number three, the need for women to recognize their full value. Sue emphasizes that women should not only focus on their work experience, but also recognize and leverage their life experiences, such as managing a household or balancing responsibilities, which develops life skills and work skills, such as communication, organization, prioritization, all of which are highly valuable in leadership roles. If you'd like to send a message to our guest, Sue Mann, we've got her contact information in the show notes for you.

Doug Downs (25:21):

Weird that men interrupt Women While they're

(25:24):

Speaking. I've never noticed that of occurs in public relations. Does that happen a lot?

Farzana Baduel (25:27):

JGR Communications and Stories and Strategies podcast,

Doug Downs (25:31):

it's really rude.

Farzana Baduel (25:32):

Liked this episode. Please leave a rating and possibly a review. Thank you to producer Emily Page and David Olijade

Doug Downs (25:41):

Two thumbs

Farzana Baduel (25:43):

Do us a favour,

Doug Downs (25:44):

Don't interrupt.

Farzana Baduel (25:44):

Forward this episode to one friend. Thanks for listening.

Doug Downs (25:49):

Really annoying.