The Hidden Reason Women are Leaving Public Relations

David Olajide (00:01):

Can I handle the seasons of my life? Can I sail through the change in ocean tides? Who am I when the person I've always been begins to slip away?

Farzana Baduel (00:18):

 It's a song that's floated through bedrooms and kitchens For nearly 50 years, Stevie Nicks wrote the landslide on a snowy Colorado night wondering if her love her music, her path would survive the storms of change. She was 27 on the edge of leaving music to go back to school, unsure if her dreams were slipping through her fingers. But the beauty of landslide is how it's grown beyond one woman's story. It has become a quiet anthem for anyone and especially any woman standing at life's crossroads for the young mother folding laundry, the dim light, wondering where her old self has gone. For the retired woman staring at a mirror lined with years unsure when her voice grew so small and for the leader, the professional, the woman at the top of her field quietly wondering if she can hold on a little longer.

(01:08):

You see the landslide doesn't always come in the form of a career change, a divorce, a child leaving home. Sometimes it comes from within a shift in the body, the mind, the very chemistry that once steadied her, now shaking her from the inside out. Perimenopause and menopause, they don't just knock on the door, they slip in quietly, draining sleep, fogging thoughts, stealing confidence. And by the time they're recognized, sometimes a woman is already halfway at the door in boardrooms and brainstorming sessions. She wonders why her memory flickers, why her patience is thinner, why the sharpness she always trusted, feels dull. She tells herself, push harder or tired, you'll slipping. She doesn't tell anyone, of course, because in a world that still calls her strong, brilliant and role model, how can she admit she's struggling just to feel herself? And so one by one, quietly, women step down, they skill back, they walk away. And the companies, the agencies, the industries they leave behind, they hardly notice, at least at first, they hire replacement, they reshuffle the team. What they've really lost is 30 years of wisdom, of leadership, of knowing when to push and when to listen. The landslide has taken more than one woman is taken the ground beneath the whole team.

(02:35):

And what if we would name it? What if we could say, this is not a weakness, this is biology. This is not the end, but a transition one that deserves support, compassion, and understanding. What if instead of watching women disappear, we built workplaces that helped them stay thrive and lead. Today on stories and strategies, we explore the quiet landslide reshaping the PR industry. The moment when seasoned, brilliant women face an invisible crossroads and too often slip away unnoticed, this isn't a women's issue, it's a leadership issue. My name is Farzana Baduel

Doug Downs (03:39):

And my name is Doug Downs. Our guest this week is Heather Blundell joining today from Manchester. I consider that North Heather. Is that the north to you or is Yorkshire where the north starts?

Heather Blundell (03:49):

No, Manchester's pretty north.

Doug Downs (03:52):

Yeah, right beside Liverpool. Not that you need to be reminded of that, Heather. You are the UK CEO of Grayling, where you lead over 200 staff across nine offices with a focus on transformative award-winning communications. You've got more than 15 years guiding global brands, having risen from the Edelman graduate scheme, the top roles at Weber. She but can catch 'em. And you're known for driving growth, navigating change, and shaping the future of the UK PR landscape.

Heather Blundell (04:20):

Thank you for having me.

Doug Downs (04:21):

Great to have you,

Farzana Baduel (04:22):

Heather. Last time we had a chat, you gave me such a surprising stat that research shows that there's more people leaving, more women leaving the PR industry due to perimenopause and menopause than because of childbirth. And that really surprised me, actually. And I wanted to ask you, why do you think that it's quite invisible? I mean, a lot of people talk about support for women when they're having children as well as for men, but there isn't as much conversation around menopause and perimenopause. Why do you think it's so invisible when actually the research is so stark that shows that it's a greater challenge for companies to retain women at that stage in their life rather than at childbirth?

Heather Blundell (05:08):

Yeah, and you're right. I do think it's quite invisible. And as the mother of two young children who has had two pregnancies and maternity leaves, I'm very grateful that great strides have been made there in terms of the support that women and men are offered in terms of the return to work and managing that period of their life. But yes, perimenopause and menopause often coincide with years when women are stepping into senior leadership roles. And symptoms

(05:46):

Often invisible, as you say, like brain fog, anxiety, severe depression, insomnia, fatigue can directly impact performance and confidence, particularly in high stakes, high visibility roles in pr. It was the CIPD that found that 67% of women aged 40 to 60 said that menopausal symptoms had a negative impact on work, and one in 10 had left their job as a result. So yes, statistical evidence as a result strongly indicates that the menopause is now more prominent cause of mid to late career exit than childbirth, especially in women in senior leadership. And I agree, I have felt very struck by this. I work with an amazing organization called Women in Work who have spoken to me about this. And yet despite that statistical evidence and knowing that our industry has so many women and fortunate enough to have women in female leadership positions, only 3% of all UK businesses have dedicated menopause policies. So I think there's a lot more for agencies to be doing.

Farzana Baduel (07:01):

Do you know what really strikes me, Heather as well, just speaking to some friends who've gone through menopause, is that they often describe it as the rush hour of their lives because it's not only their careers peaking and also they have hormonal fluctuations that has a whole number of manifestations, but also there isn't a consistency of experience across women. Some women can be impacted very differently than others, so it's really hard to find a sort of a playbook. But then they also say it's a rush hour because it's often when it coincides, not only with say, having teenagers, but also coincides with looking after aging parents caring for aging relatives. So in a way it feels like forget a double whammy, like a triple whammy.

(07:43):

And I guess it's something that I'm in perimenopause and I sort of thought to myself I didn't know anything about it. And it was actually this incredible woman called Dina McCall who started championing it in the uk and it was like BBC documentaries and they did these brain scans on women in perimenopause and menopause and with and without HR was absolutely fascinating to me that it's almost as taboo around it. Do you think it's something that it's getting better? So by the time some of our listeners in their twenties and thirties, by the time they're experiencing perimenopause, that actually it'll be a better working environment for them?

Heather Blundell (08:22):

Yeah, I hope so. And as you say, the likes of, particularly in the uk, Davina McCall, organizations like women work have made a huge difference, but just the same as we've seen agencies and businesses improve maternity and paternity policies, improvements will only come when we have actual change to policy and actual fundamental change to the way that we handle this within business. A deeper level of awareness and education isn't going to cut it.

Doug Downs (08:55):

Okay, so we've highlighted what is for me a really surprising issue, but I learned early in communications, it's not just about what you know or even just what you feel communications has to result in an action in a to do. And the to do here would be to create a workplace that has psychological safety to it where people can speak up, they can admit mistakes, they can show vulnerability without fear of judgment. How do you do that in this case?

Heather Blundell (09:23):

So I think that, and we've just made changes to what introduced and a menopause policy, and I think it needs to come down to educating teams and managers on menopause and its impacts, offering flexible working arrangements to help manage symptoms and appointments. In some cases, providing access to specialist clinical support and finally creating safe spaces and communities for women to be able to share experiences and have safe conversations. And I think that's what impacts that psychological safety aspect that you are speaking about.

Farzana Baduel (10:01):

So we talk about psychological safety in the workplace, but you also have this thought of men and women expressing stress in a very different way. So you have perhaps women may cry, men may shout, and that's a very sort of simplistic stereotype. We did have in the uk, our chancellor of Jeca, Rachel Reeves, and she was displaying emotion with live cameras. She was crying and that just went viral. And it unleashes whole debate about is it okay if she cries and is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Is she being authentic, bringing her best self to work? I just wanted to understand from your perspective had that as a agency leader, where do you lie in terms of emotional expression? Should it be penalized? Do you see gender differences at play and what does professionalism really mean in today's world when we're told to bring ourself to work and when we do, we are blasted for it?

Heather Blundell (11:03):

Yeah, I mean, as you said, this has sparks a huge conversation in the uk and I think when you say should it be penalized? I mean it depends whether that emotional outburst is appropriate and then that's a wider conversation about what isn't appropriate. I think as you say, we've seen this very starkly in the UK recently, which is brought about this conversation with our chancellor crying, and it sparked a huge national story. And yet when we have seen senior men, including politicians express emotion, particularly anger or forcefulness, it rarely makes front pages in the same way. And we do know that men and women often do show emotion in different ways. We are biologically and hormonally different, but our anger and falseness are often portrayed as strength and leadership. So I think it's fair to say that emotional expression is not a level playing field.

(11:59):

And with regards to my business, PR is a human business, emotion is a strength. PR thrives on empathy, intuition, emotional intelligence. If we penalize those traits, I feel like we risk dulling our best tools. So I've really sort of challenged myself on this since this conversation in terms of when someone is showing emotion, be it frustration, sadness, defensiveness, anger, and that we all need to pause and think, is my discomfort about their reaction? Is my discomfort about their reaction or about my own expectations of how emotions should be expressed? And do we really want to allow people to bring their whole selves to work? And I think it just as I say I said initially, is that emotion appropriate? Is this repeated behavior or is this a moment in time that we can accept, learn from and either use to our advantage or move on from

Doug Downs (12:56):

Can I push you further? Because psychological safety, there's sort of two aspects to it. One is I can go to work and I'm worried about somebody saying something or doing something that goes against my values or something that's going to upset me. I get that. But the other part is I can go to work and I'm not worried about somebody else saying, oh, Doug said this, and that triggered me and upset me. And I know that's a bit of a clumsy question, but that's the issue. That's the hard part is I don't want to be the receiver of it and I don't want to be the initiator of it. I want to feel free to express myself and be creative and be aggressive in the right ways at work.

Heather Blundell (13:37):

For sure. And I think this is where we've got to have the balance and I think we're constantly trying to figure out where that balance is, right? So we've now got an awareness of things and sometimes more junior members of my team will come to me with examples of where they feel they've been mistreated. And I sort of think to myself, oh, well is that not just life? Is that not just how agencies work? And this has been happening to me for nearly 20 years and then when I sit and think about what they're telling me, I think actually you're probably not right. You shouldn't be spoken to as a young female like that or made to feel that way. And I wish that hadn't happened to me, so why should it be happening to you? But I think it is a complete reframing, and I say that as a woman and as a leader, but I certainly don't ever want to create a culture where we can't have a laugh and we can't make that joke. And people can't ever think that they're tipping tiptoe on eggshells. So it's a balance. And sometimes I feel of course we've gone too far and sometimes I don't think we're changing and evolving fast enough, but thank goodness that we are having these conversations.

Farzana Baduel (14:45):

And it's also a tricky time, Heather, because other than building psychological safety, you are also building psychological safety at a time where a lot of PR professionals aren't feeling really safe with the rise of ai. And we see in the UK there was a report that just came out that since the release of chat, graduate job adverts have tanked by 32%. And I wanted to ask, as someone who's leading one of the most of mired agencies in the uk, how is AI reshaping the agency model in terms of what the workforce looks like, in terms of what work looks like, in terms of how you agencies typically charge on time-based and now with AI tools, that raises a lot of questions and people are moving to value-based. So talk us through what you're thinking about how you are approaching AI as a PR agency leader, and what do you foresee happening in the future?

Heather Blundell (15:53):

And it is changing and I think that anyone denies that change is going to be left behind. And I got an RFP through last week from a very well-known brand. There was outright asking us how we were going to use it to drive efficiencies and what benefits we're going to bring to the account through ai. So it's not just this sort of tool that we're using on the side to speed things up. Clients want full transparency and expect us to be even better because of it. So I think we're well into the throes of it now. And I think to answer that question honestly, we are going to see that sort of, if you think of an agency as a sort of pyramid model, probably becoming slightly more inverted over time. And I can see it becoming more possibly diamond shape with the increased use and abilities of ai.

(16:49):

And I think that we are doubling as agencies and as grading, we are doubling down in two areas. So AI literacy and tools to boost productivity, but also in human expertise. So particularly in data analysis and behavioral science and stakeholder strategy and senior advisory. So rather than that wide base of junior and mid generalists, which I was very much part of, and I'm a total generalist now, agencies are now moving to a more senior advisory model and these advisors and as PR professionals, we expect that to apply nuance and judgment and strategic thinking on top of AI generated content. So the way I see it, this is an evolution, but it's also an opportunity that AI isn't replacing human creativity, it's creating more space for it. And the agencies that will thrive will be those that get the balance right between automation and emotional intelligence.

(17:55):

And I think to myself now, and I do have conversations with our junior and my advice is to see this as freeing up of some of your admin time and to go out and build relationships because no AI or model can do that for you currently. And to actually grow, find sectors that are really interested in trying and develop a sort of specialism and to be able to position yourself, I'm really interested in energy, I'm really interested in financial services or I absolutely love media relations. That sort of rather than when I was going through the agency is kind of like, oh, I can just do it all and I can do it on this account and this account and this account. I think that model is changing.

Farzana Baduel (18:44):

Heather, thank you so much.

Heather Blundell (18:46):

Thank you for having me.

Doug Downs (18:47):

Oh, Heather, in our last episode, our guest Fred Cook, he left a question for

Fred Cook (18:53):

You and I guess the question is what can be done to reduce polarization in the world, especially in the United States, in the current circumstances we're in? How can that be reduced?

Heather Blundell (19:07):

Well, I appreciate that, particularly from the us but this isn't just a US problem, but I'm speaking from the UK so I say this with an outsider's perspective, but I think what we're seeing in the US isn't unique. Polarization is rising globally. And I guess I think there are a few things that can help. First, we need to incentivize nuance, and I know that might seem quite basic, but right now outrage of course gets more attention than understanding. And secondly, storytelling at the local and human level can cut through division far more effectively than these big abstract narratives. And thirdly, I guess to tie back to our conversation that we've had today, psychological safety matters and people only open up when they feel heard, not judged. So ultimately I think we need leaders across politics, media, culture, who are willing to listen and admit uncertainty and build bridges and to acknowledge that that's not weakness, that's leadership. I love that.

Doug Downs (20:12):

I'll layer in long conversations too. I'm tired of 32nd things. I don't get anything from a 32nd thing.

Farzana Baduel (20:21):

Agreed. Absolutely agree. Yeah. Well, I answered that in 30 seconds.

Doug Downs (20:25):

You were brilliant. Yes, you did. And I got

Farzana Baduel (20:29):

So your turn Heather, what question would you like to leave for our next guest?

Heather Blundell (20:34):

Okay, so the question I would like to leave for your next guest, your lucky next guest. How can we design workplaces that not only retain people through life's messier, more human moments, but actually see those moments as sources of strength?

Farzana Baduel (20:52):

Oh God. Well, I would say it's by leaders talking about their vulnerability, their screw ups. And I think when you talk about your mistakes and how consequential those mistakes are, I think you'll create a culture where other people can kind of share what they've done wrong in life or mistakes and actually extrapolate the learnings from it. I think sometimes we don't learn from our mistakes because we're not given a forum to talk about that. A, we made a mistake. And in order to feel psychologically safe to do that, you then have the follow-up which is aha, well what did we learn from it? What's the insight? How can we stop that from happening again? And we learn so much from making mistakes. I mean, I do that. It is one of the biggest learning lessons, and I remember coming across a podcast and the podcast is all about screw ups and what people learn from it and big ginormous screw ups like a know, like in PR world, we had Ratner, it was a jewelry brand here where the head guy gave talk and he sort of said about how he referred to his product to cheap ta, which is sort of another word for like crap.

(22:02):

I mean, there's probably a whole lot of learnings there. So that's what I would say, just psychologically safe, let the leaders start sharing their big bigger screw up and what they've learned in order for other people to then understand that sort of cognitive process of understanding When you make mistake not to feel shame and then immediately try and hide it, but actually share it and share within it the knowledge and the wisdom that comes along with making mistakes and learning from it.

Doug Downs (22:32):

That's it. Vulnerability is so powerful in the right context. Thanks again for your time, Heather, really appreciate it.

Heather Blundell (22:39):

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Doug Downs (22:43):

Here are the top three things we got today from Heather Blundell. Number one, the invisible change you're facing an industry blind spot, menopausal symptoms like brain fog and insomnia and anxiety. They hit just as women are stepping into senior roles, and yet most workplaces offer no dedicated support. That's got to change. Number two, the triple load you're navigating the rush hour of life, balancing career peaks, teenage kids and aging parents making menopause, not just a biological phase, but an overwhelming life squeeze. And number three, the call for action. You are responsible for creating psychological safety at work. Yes, you the worker, and yes, you the manager, has to be a place where women can openly share struggles without stigma and where policies, not just awareness, drive real change.

Farzana Baduel (23:35):

God, I love that. I mean, not only pig as I'm sort of approaching perimenopause, so it really does resonate, but it is such an important topic and I'm just floored by the fact that there's more women that leave their jobs at perimenopause and menopause than at childbirth. I mean, I just had no idea of that

Doug Downs (23:55):

Fact gobsmacked. I mean, we're doing this episode, my wife is going through menopause, so I joke, I'm going through menopause. I know it's inappropriate. And I have a couple of clients that have done episodes around Meno, so I've learned so much more about menopause than I ever thought I would, and I'm glad for it. It's complicated and it's a real thing that we need to learn to deal with

Farzana Baduel (24:18):

And let's make it better for the women that come after us.

Doug Downs (24:20):

Everybody.

Farzana Baduel (24:21):

Yeah, raising awareness. That's why this podcast is so important. And please do share with anyone that you feel is going through this because it's important that they know that their stories are being told.

Doug Downs (24:32):

Amen.

Farzana Baduel (24:33):

If you'd like to send a message to our guest, Heather Blundell, we've got her contact information in the show notes, stories and Strategies is a co-production of Curzon Public Relations, JGR Communications, and Stories and Strategies, podcasts. If you'd liked this episode, please leave a rating and possibly a review. And thank you to our co-producers, Emily Page and David Olajide. Lastly to us, a favour forward this episode to one friend and thank you so much for listening.