The Science of How to Talk Like Ted

Doug Downs (00:07):

Brian Stevenson is an equal rights attorney and the executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative. Back in 2011, the Roosevelt Institute awarded Stevenson a freedom medal for his work in the area of social justice. A representative from the TED Conference was in the audience and asked Stevenson to give a presentation at an event in a few months in Long Beach, California. So in March, 2012, Stevenson took the stage and gave his talk.

Brian Stevenson (00:36):

I grew up in a house that was the traditional African-American home that was dominated by a matriarch, and that matriarch was my grandmother, and the only challenge was that she had 10 children. My mom was the youngest of her 10 kids, and sometimes when I would go and spend time with her, it'd be difficult to get her time and attention. My cousins would be running around everywhere, and I remember when I was about eight or nine years old, waking up one morning going into the living room and all of my cousins were running around and my grandmother was sitting across the room staring at me, and at first I thought we were playing a game and I would look at her and I'd smile, but she was very serious and after about 15 or 20 minutes of this, she got up and she came across the room and she took me by the hand and she said, come on, Brian.

(01:20):

You and I are going to have a talk, and I remember this just like it happened yesterday and never will forget it. She took me out back and she said, Brian, I'm going to tell you something, but you don't tell anybody what I tell you. I said, okay, mom. She said, now you make sure you don't do that. I said, sure. Then she sat me down and she looked at me and she said, I want you to know I've been watching you, and she said, I think you are special. She said, I think you can do anything you want to do. Then she said, I just need you to promise me three things, Brian. I said, okay, mama. She said, the first thing I want you to promise me is that you'll always love your mom. She said, that's my baby girl, and you have to promise me now you'll always take care of her.

(02:04):

Well, I adored my mom, so I said, yes, mama. I'll do that. Then she said, the second thing I want you to promise me is that you'll always do the right thing, even when the right thing is the hard thing. And I thought about it and I said, yes, mama. I'll do that. Then finally she said, the third thing I want you to promise me is that you'll never drink alcohol. Well, I was nine years old, so I said, yes, mama, I'll do that. I grew up in the country, in the rural south, and I have a brother a year older than me and a sister a year younger. When I was about 14 or 15, one day my brother came home and he had this six pack of beer. I don't know where he got it, and he grabbed me and my sister and we went out in the woods and we were kind of just out there doing the stuff we crazily did, and he had a sip of the beer and he gave some to my sister and she had some, and they offered it to me and I said, no, no, no, no.

(02:51):

That's okay. Y'all go ahead. I'm not going to have any beer. My brother said, come on, we're doing this today. You always do what we do. I had some, your sister had some have some beer. I said, I don't feel right about that. Y'all go ahead. Y'all go ahead. And then my brother started staring at me. He said, what's wrong with you? Have some beer. Then he looked at me real hard. He said, oh, I hope you're not still hung up on that conversation mama had with you.

(03:13):

I said, well, what are you talking about? He says, well, mama tells all the grandkids that they're special. I was devastated, and I'm going to admit something to you. I'm going to tell you something I probably shouldn't. I know this might be broadcast broadly, but I'm 52 years old and I'm going to admit to you that I've never had a drop of alcohol. I don't say that because I think that's virtuous. I say that because there is power in identity. When we create the right kind of identity, we can say things to the world around us that they don't actually believe make sense. We can get them to do things that they don't think they can do.

Doug Downs (03:58):

As casual as that story seems, there's some exceptional technique when you break it apart. First it's in story form. Brain scans, show stories, stimulate and engage the human brain, helping the speaker connect with the audience, making it much more likely. The audience will agree with the speaker's perspective, and he deliberately chooses a story that we can all connect with about family. Second, it uses humor and not just any humor, but it's self-deprecating humor, which is one of the safest forms. And third, notice how quickly and seamlessly he bridges to his main topic point and delivers the narrative immediately. More brain studies show in the seconds after we laugh, our hippocampus is more likely to choose the next bits of information. As info worth remembering today on stories and strategies, how to talk like Ted, because the best presenters use preparation, structure, and practice. They aren't winging it, they're winning it. My name is Doug Downs. My guest this week is Carmine Gallo, joining today from Pleasanton, California. Hey, Carmine. Hello,

Carmine Gallo (05:22):

Doug. Good to see you.

Doug Downs (05:23):

You're how far from San Francisco?

Carmine Gallo (05:25):

About 50 miles, about an hour east of San Francisco and about as far away from the edges of what's known as Silicon Valley as you could possibly get, and still claim that you live in Silicon Valley. So how about Carmine Gall joins us from Silicon Valley, California.

Doug Downs (05:43):

We could get away with it, right? I'm sure it's beautiful where you're at.

Carmine Gallo (05:47):

It is

Doug Downs (05:48):

Carmine. You're a globally recognized communication expert, bestselling author and Harvard instructor who helps executives, leaders, and entrepreneurs master storytelling to inspire, persuade, and grow their brands. As the author of Talk like Ted, which by the way, I've heavily underlined in yellow throughout the book.

Carmine Gallo (06:08):

I'm so glad you have it. Great.

Doug Downs (06:10):

Another one of your books is The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs, and I think a fairly new one is the Bezos Blueprint, which I

Carmine Gallo (06:17):

Got. Yes. I'll show it to you. I'll make sure that I send you a copy.

Doug Downs (06:22):

But

Carmine Gallo (06:23):

The Bezos Blueprint is sort of like the presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs where I looked at one exceptional leader, and that's Jeff Bezos, because Jeff Bezos wasn't just a visionary when it came to online and retail and e-commerce and certainly cloud computing, of course, visionary, amazing person who can execute on this vision. But he also was forced to pioneer communication tactics to help people understand what is it he was trying to do. Because when Jeff Bezos was first pitching the idea of Amazon, and he didn't even have a name yet, the first question was not What's the name? The first question was, what's the internet? Imagine that communication challenge. So he pioneered a lot of interesting tactics, one of which was you may have already heard, we could talk about it later, eliminate PowerPoint in meetings.

Doug Downs (07:25):

We actually have an episode on that we did a couple of years ago. I

Carmine Gallo (07:28):

Agree. I'll have to re-listen to that one.

Doug Downs (07:30):

That's awesome. So I mean, Carmine, the most famous book about presentation was written back in the early 20th century by Dale Carnegie, the Art of Public Speaking, and Carnegie nailed it, no doubt about it. He did a really good job. Those principles stand up today, but modern technology and the passage of time gives us some deeper insights and some new tools. What are some of the most groundbreaking scientific discoveries about effective communication that weren't available a hundred years ago in Carnegie's era?

Carmine Gallo (08:04):

Well, interestingly, Dale Carnegie's work, like you said, still stands up today, but I think it is more important today than ever. I think we should revisit it. You just gave me a great idea for a topic article and a video, so I'm going to keep that. We should revisit Carnegie's work seriously, because they're rapport building networking skills that certainly PR people absolutely need and that have kind of gone by the wayside. I've certainly noticed it in the last few years. One of which you might remember this, Doug, is make people feel as if they're the most important person in the room. I love that. Dale Carnegie. Yeah. 19, what you might know today,

Doug Downs (08:52):

1915 I think was the book, right?

Carmine Gallo (08:54):

Yeah. He understood that at that time before these started getting in the way.

Doug Downs (09:01):

Yeah, phones

Carmine Gallo (09:02):

And now we don't do that anymore. I have noticed that in so many organizations, people are distracted. They're looking at their phones, they're having a conversation. If you want to be a real leader and stand out, make eye contact, make that person feel like you have their undivided attention, that they are the most important person in the room. Thank you. Dale Carnegie in 1915.

Doug Downs (09:24):

So you do that during your presentation. You make eye contact and hold onto it for there's, there is no set two seconds or three seconds, but hold onto it for what feels comfortable for the person in the audience and yourself.

Carmine Gallo (09:38):

Absolutely. That's for a presentation, but I'm suggesting how about one-on-one?

Doug Downs (09:43):

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (09:44):

Doug isn't this rapport building? I feel like we're losing it

Doug Downs (09:51):

And to technologically, I mean, now we can record ourselves, watch it or listen back to it. I've done a ton of that in my career. But deeper technology, like functional magnetic resonance imaging, actually being able to scan the brain and explore what parts of the brain are experiencing increased oxygenated blood flow. In other words, what parts of the brain are working at certain times during certain parts of the

Carmine Gallo (10:14):

Presentation. So what's interesting is that you asked, your original question was what are some of the scientific advances that Carnegie did not have? And then once I heard the name Carnegie, well, I just had to go off on my favorite topic, but there were so many actually that Dale Carnegie did not have, although I think intuitively understood things. I think he had a whole chapter on simplify. Now we know a little bit more about what that means because through MRI studies, through biometric sensors, have you ever seen those kind of labs where they put sensors on people's scalps and they're testing everything from brain activity to pulse reaction to sweat on their skin? I'm sure you've either talked about it or you've seen those labs,

Doug Downs (11:04):

Seen some of that. Yeah,

Carmine Gallo (11:06):

For sure. Yeah, I've talked to some of those neuroscientists. So when we talk about simplicity, what does that mean? Well, now we're learning a lot more. Again, things that Carnegie probably knew instinctively, but he didn't go into it. He certainly didn't know cognitive load. So cognitive load means that when you give people too much information at any one sitting, they're going to drop the whole thing. It's like adding weights. You can handle one, two or three plates and then all of a sudden stack on four more 40 fives and you're going to lose the whole thing.

(11:43):

But what I've been doing for two decades now is I am obsessed with what exactly does that mean though? Okay, cognitive load too much, fine. Now what am I going to do? That information? So there is one tactic in particular that I've certainly written about, and I want to reinforce it with our listeners today because I think it's the one most important thing they could probably do right now and their very next email or very next presentation, and that stick to the rule of three. Obviously, I've known about the rule of three for a long time, for years, started writing about it with Steve Jobs, he would often break things up into three, but now that I look at the research, there's a reason for it. People can only remember about three to five things in working memory.

Doug Downs (12:36):

That's the hippocampus. Yeah,

Carmine Gallo (12:37):

For sure. And then they forget it unless it's repeated constantly. So this whole idea about repetition, Doug is interesting because if you can't repeat something, it's not going to transfer into long-term memory. What I've learned in the last few years of talking to neuroscientists and reading the research is one of the reasons why people like to stick to three is because it's easy to remember and easy to repeat if they leave your presentation. If someone leaves your presentation and they don't know the top three takeaways, they're not going to remember a thing.

(13:18):

It's really interesting. They've got to be able to repeat it. So a few months ago, I interviewed a guy who wrote a bestselling book on the brain and why it remembers the way it does. So it wasn't just about communication. So he was a neuroscientist. I interviewed him and he gave me a good tip, one that I've forgotten, stick to three, he delivered. He brought that up. Didn't he said three points in a presentation. No more than three key messages, but make sure those messages are clear, not only at the beginning, but recap them at the end. I've been speaking for years, for decades. I don't always do that. In fact, I rarely do that. I'm pretty good at breaking things up into three. Here's three things you need to know or three things you can take away from this discussion, but I don't recap them at the end. He said, that's crucial. If you don't recap them at the end, they're going to get lost in the middle. So it's very interesting, but I think through science and talking to neuroscientists, we can learn a lot more about how to be more effective communicators, even though we know some of it intuitively, and a lot of it we're learning on podcasts like yours. But then if you look at the science, it starts to all make sense.

Doug Downs (14:38):

Another key part of your book is you talk about having passion and energy for your topic, and neuroscience supports that too. For example, we have mirror neurons in our brain. If you're excited about something, good point. There are synaptic connections in my brain that get excited as well. Now, I might later determine what you were excited about was a bunch of crap, but for the moment, my brain is feeding off of your energy. How important is it for me as a PR person to get my CEO to be energetic about this thing they're talking about?

Carmine Gallo (15:14):

Oh, you've flipped the question on me. I did. Okay. I thought you were going to say how do we as speakers, okay. I do have a tactic for that because it's easy for us. You're right. It's easy for us to be excited and passionate about this topic. My goodness. I'm working on a new audio original podcast. I've been having to write scripts for it. So the last three weeks I've been coming into this office here on the weekends, Saturday and Sundays, and looking forward to it, looking forward to it, like, I can't wait. Cool. Sunday morning, let's go. Cool. How many times in your life do you do that, especially in your career? So I think you're right. It's easy for us to reflect that passion. Okay, so a couple of things about how to teach someone else. First of all, I just learned this a couple of weeks ago by talking to a cognitive neuroscientist, do you know why we need to focus on energy? Why that's more important than your first slide? Because the human brain is judging you, is evaluating you, is sizing you up in the first 20 seconds of seeing you.

(16:27):

It's because it is deep seated evolutionary trait, friend or foe, do I like this person or do I not like this person? And your brain's going through all that. So when you first appear, have a smile on your face years ago, when you get the benefit of watching yourself on video, I see that, oh, why am I not smiling in that keynote? Because I'm too focused on the next slide,

Doug Downs (17:00):

Right?

Carmine Gallo (17:01):

Oh, should I have swapped? Slide four and three? It gets in your brain,

(17:08):

You're thinking ahead and you're not really focused on the present and putting a smile on your face and being happy to share your message. So that's one thing you can reinforce with people and also ask them, I used to be in pr. I had a journalism career, then a short PR career, but about four or five years where I did a lot of media training, presentation, coaching, and then I started writing books and building my own practice. So I sort of know. I definitely know the PR side. Here's a question they don't always ask the person. They're preparing for the speech or the presentation, and that is, aside from the PowerPoint, aside from the data and the numbers, what is it about this year, this month, this presentation that you are especially excited about that maybe other people don't know or the audience doesn't appreciate? What would that be? You have to help people dig a little deeper about their topic and why they're excited. Just kind of draw it out of them. But I don't think it does a lot of good to say, look more excited, how exactly. That's what I like to do. That's why I like to do the research and read books and break it down. What exactly do we mean by a certain topic?

Doug Downs (18:35):

Okay, let me do exactly that from your book, the piece, and I do presentation coaching, media training over 20 some odd years myself, saw your book on the shelf, had to buy it, just talk like Ted speaks to me. So it's a perfect book to buy. The buzz phrase right now is be authentic. And I always like to add that my best ad libs in this life are well rehearsed, and most people kind of scoff at me. You're not being authentic if you've practiced, but your book makes a different case. That practice will help strip away the fake layers of, I'll call it fauxthenticity that we all adopt in public. Expand on that a little bit for me, if you could.

Carmine Gallo (19:22):

Well, you just articulated it better than I wrote it.

Doug Downs (19:26):

No, you wrote it really well. No,

Carmine Gallo (19:29):

No, I like that. I really do like that fauxthenticity. Fauxthenticity,

Doug Downs (19:34):

Yeah.

Carmine Gallo (19:34):

Oh, I wish I came up with That's yours. I'll be using it

Doug Downs (19:37):

All. It's yours. You've inspired you. It's yours.

Carmine Gallo (19:41):

Yeah. So practice. Look, no one. I've worked also with executives and I've seen hundreds of speakers. Not one person I know has over practiced ever. So I'm sure there's a limit at where you practice so much, maybe you are too robotic. But I don't see it because most people, almost everyone under practices by a factor of 10, and that's why they give a presentation and they are deer in the headlights because they haven't practiced in what's called real world conditions. So yes, you can be more authentic when you practice because you're more comfortable in the environment. You've been there before. When I give talks, I'll often ask if they're business professionals. I'll often ask them, how many times have you recorded yourself on Zoom before the meeting? How many times do you record yourself and then watch the video back?

Doug Downs (20:50):

Zero.

Carmine Gallo (20:50):

No, one, zero. Yes. Yeah, almost zero. Well, that's practicing. That's what we mean by practice folks. So don't get too confused about, well, I heard Doug say that if you practice, you'll be more confident, more authentic. But I disagree because it'll be too robotic. No, no. That's not what we mean at all. In fact, it's just the opposite. You are so comfortable because you've been there

Doug Downs (21:17):

That

Carmine Gallo (21:17):

It helps you unleash your real personality. So everything from the lights to record yourself on video. How does my background look? Am I making eye contact with the camera? That's the eye of the listener. In this case. It well. Is it well lit? Do I sound good? Am I using too many ums, ahs? Am I hesitating too much? Is it taking too much time to get to the point and go through the presentation so that you're comfortable? Oh, this is what I'm going to say for slide number five, and this is the story I'm going to add there. And this is the nugget I'm going to add there, and I'm out in 20 minutes and everyone's going to be happy. And then the next time when you're really on, you can put a smile on your face and just have fun.

Doug Downs (22:08):

Excellent. It's great to meet you. And I love spending time with you today, Carmine.

Carmine Gallo (22:13):

Thank you. Nice to meet you.

Doug Downs (22:14):

Oh, hey, in our previous episode, our guest professor Ann Gregory, university of Hunters Field, left a question for you.

Anne Gregory (22:22):

Do you think it's ever possible for there to be a balance of power in communication?

Doug Downs (22:30):

Expand on that for me.

Anne Gregory (22:33):

Okay. So because somebody normally has power in communication, don't they? The government speaking to the people, big organizations speaking to consumers now got social media influencers talking to others, and they've got a lot of power. We've got politicians vying for this space all the time. So is it ever possible for there to be a balance in communication from between those who are communicating and those who are being communicated with?

Doug Downs (23:07):

That's a wicked question. That's tough.

Carmine Gallo (23:10):

That's a deeply philosophical question,

Doug Downs (23:13):

Isn't it though?

Carmine Gallo (23:13):

Do we have another two hours? No, no, thanks. Oh, so Ann is asking, is there the balance of power and communication? The way I look at it, I do look at communication through a historical lens, and what I've realized is that the tools of communication have changed and the human brain has not. In fact, I think if there's one thing we could take away from today's podcast, it's that line. It's really been on my mind for years now, ever since I kind of learned it from neuroscientists. The tools we use to communicate have changed. Yes, I know we're using remote meetings. People can amplify their voice through apps and streaming. I get all that. The tools have changed, but fundamentally, the human brain has not, which is why Aristotle, the father of persuasion, is still relevant today when he said, in order to persuade, you have to touch people's emotions, and you have to have character and credibility, and you have to be able to make a logical appeal to reason. But you got to have all those three. So I think the tools have changed, but the human brain is not. The more we understand about how people process information like you and I have been talking about, I think you'll be much more effective. And I know enough about the human brain to know I am not in the prediction business that most predictions are wrong. So hard for me to predict. Doug. It

Doug Downs (24:45):

Is the short answer, don't you? And I work in a field where we're trying to increase the imbalance of power. If you and I both work in some realm to help others be more effective communicators, then they are more powerful, and there continues to be an imbalance of power and communication.

Carmine Gallo (25:03):

I guess that's the way you look at it, Doug, again, this is why this is so philosophical. We could talk for hours, but the fact that you and I are reaching people directly, then we couldn't do, say even 10, 15 years ago, not as easily. Doesn't that mean the power is now in the individual? You can debate that too.

Doug Downs (25:22):

Accessible to, all right. Accessible to each accessible, yes. Okay, your turn. Carmine. What question would you like to leave behind for our next

Carmine Gallo (25:28):

Guest? What is one life hack that you've learned or adopted in the last 10 years that you wish you would've learned earlier in your career?

Doug Downs (25:42):

For me, it's patience. Yeah. Even things that just strike me, not only as, hmm, I'm not sure, but as wrong, I've learned to just keep my mouth shut, be patient, and genuinely try to understand what's compelling, the other person or other people

Carmine Gallo (26:04):

In

Doug Downs (26:04):

That direction. So for me,

Carmine Gallo (26:05):

That's a good answer.

Doug Downs (26:06):

For me, that's it. And it doesn't make me a saint because I'm still not good at it.

Carmine Gallo (26:11):

So I'll tell you what it is for me, because it's been very, very obvious in the last decade. As you know, there has been a big fight for our attention,

(26:23):

And we are competing against thousands of engineers creating algorithms that vie for our attention, that keep us hooked. I wish I had learned when I was early in my career, my twenties, radical focus, radical focus, being able to tune out the distractions and understanding that that's what they're working on, that they are experts. And back then it was television news and then the internet, obviously. But those folks are experts because they put so much data and so much energy into figuring out ways to keep you hooked. And then you realized, how many hours did I put into this other content when I should have been working on my own?

Doug Downs (27:12):

Great to have you Carmine. So glad we got together.

Carmine Gallo (27:15):

Really nice to be invited. Great audience. Thanks, Doug.

Doug Downs

Here are the top three things I got from Carmine Gallo is this episode:

1. Make the Audience Feel Important – Inspired by Dale Carnegie’s teachings, Carmine emphasizes the power of making others feel like the most important person in the room. Give people your undivided attention, make eye contact, and truly engage with people instead of being distracted by technology. This applies not just in presentations but also in one-on-one interactions to build rapport and leadership presence.
2. Stick to the Rule of Three – Cognitive science has confirmed that people remember information best when it's grouped into three key points. If a presentation doesn’t have clear, memorable takeaways, the audience will likely forget most of it. 
3. Energy and Passion Are Contagious – Neuroscience shows enthusiasm is crucial for engagement. Mirror neurons cause audiences to pick up on a speaker’s energy, making passion a powerful tool in communication. 

If you’d like to send a message to my guest Carmine Gallo we’ve got his contact information in the show notes.

Stories and Strategies is a co-production of JGR Communications and Stories and Strategies Podcasts. If you liked this episode, please leave a rating and possibly a review? 

Next week, we’re introducing our new co host Farzana Baduel. I could not possibly be more excited.

Thank you to our Producer Emily Page. 

Lastly, do us a favour? Forward this episode to one friend. Thanks for listening.