The Words We Need: Communicating with Someone in Times of Grief and Tragedy

Emily Page (00:01):

In 1916, Robert Frost published a poem titled out a haunting piece about the fleeting nature of life. Inspired by a real event, frost tells the tragic story of a young boy working with a saw, one moment focused on his task, the next facing the unimaginable. But as you'll soon hear, it is not just a poem, is a reminder of how fragile life truly is.

Doug Downs (00:29):

It was a crisp, cool afternoon in Vermont, the kind of day where the sky stretched endlessly overhead and the mountain stood like silent. Sentinels. The boy no more than 16, stood beside his father and older brother. The steady hum of the saw filling the air like a drumbeat. The family owned a small farm, not much, but enough to get by. Days were long work was hard, and there was no time for idleness. The boy eager to prove himself. A man took his place at the saw. He'd seen his father do it a hundred times before, steady hands, sharp eyes, careful movements today was no different. And then a voice called from the house. "Come in for supper". A simple phrase, a mother's reminder of warmth and rest. But in that moment, the boy's focus faltered. His hand slipped the saw once a tool of purpose became an instrument of destruction, a single gasp, a cry.

(01:30):

And in an instant, his hand was gone. Blood darkened the sawdust. The boy staggered eyes wide with terror, staring down at what was no longer there. He didn't scream. Not at first. Perhaps he thought it wasn't real. Perhaps he hoped that if he wielded hard enough, time might rewind itself, but pain as a way of making things real, they rushed him inside, bandaged the wound held him still as best they could. He fought to stay awake. He pleaded. Don't let them cut it off as though his words alone might undo what had already been done. But the world is cruel to the young. And as the doctor arrived, his voices murmured and hands pressed against his chest. The boy so full of life, only moments before was gone, and then life moved on. The saw was cleaned. The tools were set aside. The men in the field turned back to their work because what else was there to do?

(02:40):

The sun would set the chores remained and grief like everything else had to wait. Robert Frost ends his poem with a line as chilling as the mountain air. And since they were not the one dead turned to their affairs, a boy was lost that day. But in a world that does not pause for grief, his story might've vanished like sawdust in the wind, except it didn't because Robert Frost wrote it down today on stories and strategies when grief or tragedy strike, how to break that silence, how to offer comfort without cliches, and how to be present for those who need us most.

(03:45):

My name is Doug Downs, this episode in honor of podcast on and specifically for the Canadian Cancer Society. Just as we get started, I want to thank John Meyer. John left a message on our Facebook page, specific to the episode we did with William Barnum, a former Navy Seal about how communications is a Navy Seal's best weapon. John wrote, "Love listening to your podcast during my morning commute, and I made sure to pass this week's episode to our event planning team, specifically the Office of Community Outreach for the US Navy." John, that is so cool, and I really, really appreciate your note on Facebook, and thank you for listening. So my guests this week are Tim Kelter and Pete Paczko. Tim, you're joining here in Calgary where I am. Good to see you, Tim.

Tim Kelter (04:35):

Yeah, good to see you, Doug. Good to see you.

Doug Downs (04:37):

And Pete, you are just East, East, eight hour drive in Regina. A

Pete Paczko (04:45):

Mere one hour flight.

Doug Downs (04:47):

A one hour exactly in Regina. And just for background, Tim, you're my wife's cousin.

Tim Kelter (04:53):

That's how you

Doug Downs (04:54):

And I know each other. And Pete, you and I worked together, oh God, back, was it 89 or 90?

Pete Paczko (05:02):

I think it was 90, 91, somewhere in

Doug Downs (05:04):

There. Oh my gosh, right. The Bangles

Pete Paczko (05:07):

Yeah. I graduated in 89 and then, yeah, it'll be about a year

Doug Downs (05:10):

Later. The Bangles were all the rage. Walk like an Egyptian was a brand new hit song. But it's great to connect with you and both of you have, I don't even know if amazing is the right word for it, but you have strong stories to tell. Tim, I'm going to start with you. Your daughter, Carolyn, she was 16 when she was diagnosed with cancer.

Tim Kelter (05:36):

That's correct.

Doug Downs (05:37):

What kind of cancer, just briefly, but how was this diagnosis brought to her and to you and Angela at the time? How was the communication and what worked, what didn't?

Tim Kelter (05:50):

Well, it started out she had a little bit of a pain in her side, and we thought was from lacrosse the night before, she was complaining her ribs had hurt. So we went to the doctor, to the children's hospital and they did a scan. We were there eight hours. I was getting worried. I thought something was up. I knew something just didn't seem right. So my wife was driving home and we got the call. Doctor came in crying. My wife had showed up by that time because I said, you better come here. Something just doesn't feel right.

Doug Downs (06:21):

Who was crying?

Tim Kelter (06:23):

The doctor when she came into the office, which surprised, usually they're rocks, but she had seen the scan and she'd been with me and my daughter going out through the day talking about what she was looking for and never mentioned cancer at all. We thought possibly appendix or something. And when she came in crying and my wife was there, she said, I don't even know how to tell you guys this, but your daughter has cancer. There's a tumor that's 16 centimeters. And both of us hit the floor. We had no idea.

Doug Downs (06:56):

Sorry, Tim. 16 centimeters in inches is roughly how long?

Tim Kelter (07:00):

It's about six, six inches probably. So the size of a softball?

Doug Downs (07:05):

Yeah, sure.

Tim Kelter (07:05):

Yeah. Yeah. I would say the size of a softball. And right away, my first thing was is, well, how do you know it's cancer? I mean, people can have tumors. And she said, well, just by the sheer size of it, when we see something that large in there, generally it's cancer.

Doug Downs (07:23):

Was it just you and Angela, your wife in the room, or was

Tim Kelter (07:25):

Carolyn? Yeah, and my daughter too. She was there and Carolyn and Carolyn started crying and her grandmother had passed of cancer and she just lost it. She said, dad, I don't want to die. I don't want to die. And as a father, you just feel like you're drowning and you can't swim. And I told her, don't worry. I mean cancer. There's lots of ways to fight it and we're we're going to fight it. So yeah, it was tough.

Doug Downs (07:51):

And Pete, the diagnosis for you, it was liver cancer. Share the same story with me if you could. How were you told?

Pete Paczko (07:59):

It was interesting. I ga some routine blood work done. Nothing out of the ordinary. It wasn't feeling sick at all. And met with the doctor and she said, your white blood cell counts a little high. It's probably nothing, but maybe we should get that checked out. Well, nothing turned out to be cancer, specifically Cholangio carcinoma for folks who know about that stuff. And it's a particularly nasty cancer. I think the survival rate five years is under 10%. And of course I read all this and I panicked because they,

Doug Downs (08:37):

Is that what they leave it for you to read up on Dr. Google or do they tell you at the time?

Pete Paczko (08:42):

Basically they tell you what you need to know and where you need to be, but in terms of extensive research now you're pretty much on your own. They put me in touch eventually with the Cholangiocarcinoma Foundation, and that helped because they sent me a whack of information and that sort of gave me an idea of what to expect and maybe possible treatment options. And yeah, I mean the communication throughout the process has been very hit and miss. I have to say, depending on who the doctor is and whether or not they know me or have eight other patients to see that hour, they may be very brief, they may be very brusque, some have not great bedside manner.

Doug Downs (09:28):

Definitely.

Pete Paczko (09:29):

One guy told me in 2021 that I should expect to be dead within 12 to 18 months.

Doug Downs (09:35):

He told you just like that, those words

Pete Paczko (09:38):

Flat out. And we had our football banquet for the high school team I coach that night, and so I had to go there after getting that bombshell and try to act normal. It was rough. But this guy was just filling in for my regular oncologist when my regular guy came back and I told him what the other doctor said, he's like, he can't say that. We have no way of knowing that. And I went, yeah, well, scared the hell out of me, bud.

Doug Downs (10:05):

And Tim, you were nodding throughout that. So same feeling that Dr. Google was communicating with you instead of your doctor, doctor?

Tim Kelter (10:13):

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. They told us not to look. They said, don't look. It'll just scare you. Trust in what we're doing. We have this covered, but unfortunately they didn't know. It's a rare type of cancer, adrenal, cortical carcinoma. There's only been one or two patients at the children's hospital that have ever had it. And yeah, the survival rate is so low, it's just crazy. And what they told us was that they were going to give it chemo, shrink it, hopefully remove it. Well, after we went to the United States, they said no, they would've removed it then given chemo after to kill any of the traces. But we didn't get that option. So they didn't know what they were doing. I wished I would've never allowed them to do what they've done. They made our oncologist disappear and yeah, I tried to find him for the last two years and he's gone.

Doug Downs (11:08):

I know. Tim, in your case, was it a GoFundMe page? You had family and community support?

Tim Kelter (11:14):

Oh, thank God for that. Yeah. I had such amazing people. I can't even thank the people enough people came forward. We raised a quarter million dollars that helped us go to the states. We still had to spend another quarter million dollars of our own money. But I'll tell you,

Doug Downs (11:30):

And in the US it was the Mayo Clinic, right?

Tim Kelter (11:32):

Yeah, yeah. And best treatment. I couldn't even tell you how incredible the American system is compares to ours.

Doug Downs (11:39):

From a communication perspective, what worked better at the Mayo Clinic in the US that did not work in Canada from a pure communications,

Tim Kelter (11:49):

The wastage on bandages and doctors coming in, if you have to go to the washroom, they have two nurses assist you. Family can't where here, if I wasn't there, my daughter wouldn't have got to the bathroom half the time. So there's more

Doug Downs (12:02):

Personal

Tim Kelter (12:02):

Attention. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. They don't beat around the bush like Pete was saying. They only give you enough information to keep you going, but it's not the right information all the time.

Doug Downs (12:16):

Pete, anything similar for you? Did your friends and family start a campaign? Have you thought about any US treatment or anything like that?

Pete Paczko (12:28):

Thought about? Haven't pursued that yet, because treatment seems to be going okay as of late. I mean, well,

Doug Downs (12:36):

You have chemo today and you're doing a podcast episode.

Pete Paczko (12:40):

Yeah, I suppose.

Doug Downs (12:41):

Yeah. You're

Pete Paczko (12:41):

Tough, Pete. Good thing we're not doing it tomorrow morning. I'd be a little more fatigued, but yeah, I mean I just dove right into this thing. I'm like, all right, well, you tell me. I've got a year to 18 months to live challenge accepted. I swore a little too, but not at the doctor, and I'm just like, screw this, I'm fighting. Let's

Doug Downs (13:02):

Go. How long ago was it now?

Pete Paczko (13:05):

It was 2021.

Doug Downs (13:09):

So, so far they're wrong. Yeah. Well, they are wrong. Not so far. They are wrong with that

Pete Paczko (13:15):

One. And then I got the stage four diagnosis last spring, I guess it was. And in that case, the doctor said there's no finite line that, yeah, your age and the stage of your, this is how long you're going to live. But he basically said, people in your stage of cancer generally might make it a year at the most. And I went, all right, another challenge to accept. Cool. Let's go

Doug Downs (13:48):

For you, Tim. Carolyn, I was at her celebration of life. How long afterward did Carolyn pursue? And then tell me when your wife Angela's diagnosis came.

Tim Kelter (14:03):

Well, Carolyn, she passed away in 2000. She fought it for just over a year and a half.

Doug Downs (14:12):

What year, sorry?

Tim Kelter (14:13):

2000. She passed? Yeah,

Doug Downs (14:17):

2020.

Tim Kelter (14:18):

Yeah, 2020. Sorry. Yeah, she worked hard to fight, fight as hard as she could. And finally the tumors themselves had grown so large that they were actually just crushing our organs. It was a nightmare to watch her go through that. But we got through it. We were just kind of on the mend. Life was getting good again. And Angela, we were out the coast at our place there, and she was paddle boarding and last day we were there, we put the paddleboard away and she said to me, oh, my leg is kind of weak. And I said, oh, well that's weird. And she'd had a cough since April, but we had Covid, so we all assumed, well, it was covid, but when we got home, I said, you better go see the doctor about that leg. So she did right away, went and saw the doctor, and they did an x-ray.

(15:04):

My doctor, he's a great guy. He sent her for all the tests. She got x-ray and ultrasounds and got a phone call from the doctor that night. And both of us know those phone calls. If you have a scan and you get a phone call, you're generally in trouble. If you don't hear anything, it's good news. So we got a call and my doctor, he's a friend, he said, can you come in? I said, okay. Yeah, sure. So we both went in and I was assuming maybe an infection or something or I wasn't assuming that melanoma was going to be Angela's cancer. Right.

Doug Downs (15:39):

Completely unrelated to Carolyn's.

Tim Kelter (15:41):

Yeah, completely unrelated. And Angela did have a small mole 20 years prior that they removed and said was melanoma, but they had clean margins, gotten rid of it. She had been doing all the tests and everything over the years and everything was

Doug Downs (15:55):

Clear. Okay. And was the communication better this time with Angela or was it about the same?

Tim Kelter (16:01):

Well, no, the first doctor, it's a horrible story. I mean, my personal doctor, he was great. He said, Hey, an there's a 10 centimeter tumor in your lung. We don't know what it is. It could be something sinister. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, but he said, it might just be an infection. We don't know. We need an MRI. He said, the problem with the MRI is it could take months to get it. And I turned to him and said, Hey, can we go and pay for it? He said, absolutely, you can pay for it. So right away he wrote a prescription. We called Beam Radiology, who is fantastic A, they booked us in the next day. So it was a Friday. We got the scan done Monday morning, Angela, I didn't know, got up early, went to Beam Radiology, picked up the report. If you pay for it, you can see the report before the doctors get it.

(16:59):

So Angela ran there, got the report, because you're paying for it, so it comes to you. I was still sleeping and I woke up to her crying, grabbing my arm and saying, honey, it's everywhere. And I was just in shock. What do you mean it's everywhere? Well, my lungs, my brain, my hip, my leg. No wonder my leg is weak. My adrenal glands, my kidneys just everywhere. I can tell you the spots. It wasn't. And then we don't see an oncologist or anything. We have nobody. We now know this and we have nobody. Who do you go to? We're waiting now for this report to go back to our doctor and our doctor to tell somebody at the cancer center to look at it, which takes three, four weeks in itself. And with us being kind of semi cancer experts from being through it with our daughter and seeing hundreds of scans, you know that this is urgent. And so anyhow, I had a friend who is a surgeon, wrote a letter to another specialist, a thoracic surgeon who then called us in his office, came in on his day off. This guy is like a hero to me. So we got in to see him and he did a bronchoscopy, which tells you what type of cancer it is by going into the lung and removing a little piece of the cancer. And two days later, we found out it was melanoma, but we still haven't got a cancer doctor.

Doug Downs (18:40):

And you don't know what stage here.

Tim Kelter (18:42):

We have no idea, no idea. We just now know it's melanoma. So he sent the samples to the oncology department, and luck would have it. Angela got a fever and an infection from having that test, which is like 5% of the people that have that test get an infection. She happened to get an infection that pushed us into the hospital. Then while we were in emergency, we finally got to see an oncologist where we would've waited three weeks, and who knows if we had that time. So yeah, just terrible.

Doug Downs (19:19):

And to move Angela's story, was it last October that

Tim Kelter (19:24):

Angela passed? Yeah, she passed in October. Yeah, this all started year and a half previous in September, well, August when we found out that it was cancer.

Doug Downs (19:36):

I want to move to how family and friends have responded to you when someone shares that they have a diagnosis of cancer, or Tim, in your case, your daughter and your wife have passed from cancer, you had celebrations of life for each. How do people respond? I'm sure there are some people that do it really well. I'm sure there are some who don't know what to say and they don't say anything, which I'm hoping to change that, quite frankly, with this episode. I think there's always something to say, and then I'm sure there are others who do speak up and it might be a little better if they spoke a little differently. Pete, I'll start with you. You have an amazing group of friends in Regina. I see the posts on Facebook. How have people responded? What have they gotten? And without embarrassing anybody, what have folks not necessarily gotten right? How would you like the communication to be?

Pete Paczko (20:34):

I think from my perspective anyway, the worst thing anyone could do is not say anything at all. I mean, I've told everyone I know, and I've been very upfront about it. I said, you know what? We don't have to talk about cancer. We can talk about football, we can talk about movies. We can talk about whatever you want. I'm still here and I still have a life. And that seems to open a few minds and a few doors. But yeah, it, it's awkward, especially that initial conversation with someone. They have no idea. Do they say, I'm

Doug Downs (21:07):

Sorry, they say thoughts and prayers and is that helpful? Are thoughts and prayers good?

Pete Paczko (21:13):

I mean, it doesn't hurt. No. Nope. It is. Some days when I'm having a tough day or I'm hooked up to the chemo and I think about all the people that are in my corner, I go, okay, well, giving up isn't an option. But even if it was, I couldn't because of all these people that I would disappoint if I did that.

Doug Downs (21:35):

So let me pick up on that. Are there some people, Pete, where you can feel it, they genuinely feel it deep in their bones, how sad they are for this, that you're almost consoling them?

Pete Paczko (21:47):

Yeah, yeah, actually, absolutely. They do not know what to do. People ask me, can we bring you food? I'm like, I can't guarantee I'll eat it. But yeah, of course you can. And I mean, I'm not going to say no to any kindness. There's a lady that, strangely enough, is my ex-mother-in-law, and she goes with me to every chemo treatment just because she's retired and she has the time and she doesn't think I should have to go through that alone. What's her name? What's her first name? Her name is Wynona. Wynona, yell Andy. She's a blessing

Doug Downs (22:24):

Tim, folks not saying something. And I know because you and I spoke earlier, sometimes they say stuff and it's not that it's wrong, it's just there might be a different approach to

Tim Kelter (22:35):

Yeah, no, absolutely. Everybody has their opinion on how you should handle things, and when your guts are ripped out and your heart's smashed, that's just not what you want to hear. You don't want to hear how you should handle it.

Doug Downs (22:49):

They're telling you how to handle it, how to fix it.

Tim Kelter (22:50):

Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing how many people have told me that, oh, you need this. You need to just keep going. You're still alive. And they would want you to go forward and well, of course, course, everybody would want you to go forward, but better to just give somebody love and hugs and be their friend. You don't have to tell them how to create the next part of their life. And it's sometimes frustrating. And sometimes you just understand that that's people, they've never been through it. And unless you have, you just don't know. You

Doug Downs (23:30):

Don't. Or I wonder if they've been through a shade of it that someone they know who went through it and they start telling you their story.

Tim Kelter (23:39):

Exactly. When I'm talking about my daughter and then a good friend of mine, they one child and I have two, and they're always telling me how great the experience, oh, my son's going to university and college and everything is fantastic, and how is your son doing now that all this has happened? And I'll tell him, he's doing great and well, does he miss his sister? Well, of course he misses his sister, and of course he'd want to be there for her graduation. But just sometimes people can just overspeak or overstep the boundaries, and it makes it hard. Makes it hard. I had friends just disappear, didn't know how to handle it. My daughter was sick and talked to the guy every day, most of growing up and vanished. I was like, what's going on? I phoned him. He could hardly talk. And I got it after. I didn't get it at the time, but I got it after that. He just couldn't, couldn't put up with it. He didn't know how to talk to me. And it hurt him. It hurt him so bad. And then after his daughter got sick, and he called me right away and said, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I ghosted you. I couldn't talk to you, and now I know what you went through. And now it's just heartbreaking for me to hear that he was going through that.

Doug Downs (25:02):

Pete, what should I say to somebody?

Pete Paczko (25:06):

Well, how are you feeling? And if the person just gives you fine, then okay, accept that and move on to a different topic of conversation. If the person wants to, in this case me wants to give you some more details, some more information, then be open to that and recognize that everyone's journey is different. What happened for your uncle's, sister's, great aunt isn't necessarily what I'm going through. So if you want to suggest essential oils, or one woman actually, and I can't even make this up, private, messaged me and said, my brother is a chiropractor who cures cancer. Check him out. I'm like, no, sorry. I know you think you're being helpful, but

Doug Downs (25:58):

Yeah,

Tim Kelter (25:59):

Add all of that too. Yep.

Doug Downs (26:02):

So what percentage of people, because that's a form of let me help you fix it, what percentage of people respond with the Let me help you fix it?

Pete Paczko (26:10):

Mercifully, it's been a low percentage for me, thankfully, under 10% for sure.

Doug Downs (26:16):

Okay.

Tim Kelter (26:18):

Yeah. Yeah. I had lots contact us telling us to try dandelions and eat this, eat that ivermectin. And I am not saying that's bad. I mean, we pretty much ate everything. We tried everything. Of course we were going to try anything. We could try, but, and even the doctors, they don't know something that fixes somebody might fix, somebody else might not. So like chemo, it's a shot in the dark, it's a roll the dice. And maybe it works for Pete, maybe it doesn't work for Pete. Right. So there's 10 different kinds. And

Doug Downs (26:56):

For each of you in the last couple of years, is there, do you listen to music any differently? Do you find you watch TV shows differently? Do you do things differently? Do you talk to others differently? Pete, I'll start with you.

Pete Paczko (27:12):

Yes. I don't know if it's the chemo. I don't know if it's the cancer or just life experience, but I get a lot more emotional when I listen to songs that have a deep emotional meaning. And even just the stupidest stuff, like on tv, I'm a single parent of a young man who's 25, and if the show or the movie has anything to do with the father son relationship, I'll find myself getting weepy. And it's just like, I know I shouldn't be doing this, but I'm emotional and I'll chalk it up to chemo. And that's just the way it has to be.

Doug Downs (27:51):

Field of dreams at the end of the movie when he plays catch with his dad,

Pete Paczko (27:55):

Can't do it.

Tim Kelter (27:58):

Yeah. That's heartbreaking for all of us.

Pete Paczko (28:00):

Nope. Can't watch that scene again.

Tim Kelter (28:01):

Yeah, I'd love to play catch with my daughter. Right,

Doug Downs (28:06):

Exactly. I hadn't actually thought of that. You're right. Tim, how about you? Does music strike you any differently? Poetry, TV shows, stuff?

Tim Kelter (28:17):

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Music especially, I found some music, super healing and some stuff just can tear you right down, like songs that were your favorite songs or your loved one's favorite songs. So yeah, it's tough. But I do find that that is a little bit healing to listen to that stuff and enjoy thinking of the memories and thinking of that stuff. But it took me a while to get there, for sure.

Pete Paczko (28:43):

I had to give myself crap. I started picking out funeral songs.

Tim Kelter (28:47):

Yeah.

Pete Paczko (28:48):

And I just went, no, man, you're not there yet. Stop that.

Doug Downs (28:51):

How far down the path did you, before you decided that though, had you been four or

Pete Paczko (28:56):

Five songs? Yeah, we

Doug Downs (29:00):

Did it too. These

Pete Paczko (29:00):

Are the songs that sort of speak to what's happened. And then I just went, why are you doing this to yourself?

Doug Downs (29:06):

Yeah. Okay. Each of you give me one song that you've changed your opinion about in the last few years that you think might be attributable to what you've experienced in the last couple of years. Tim, I'm going to start with you. A song that maybe you didn't pay attention to or you disliked, or even that you liked a lot before and now you don't like. What song is that?

Tim Kelter (29:35):

Well, I wasn't a huge fan of Benny and The Jets, but that was my daughter's favorite song. And yeah, she was in a coma and my son played it for her. And when she woke up, that's one thing she heard. She heard that. So I think of it all the time. It's hard to listen to it. Wow. Yeah. Pete, how about you?

Pete Paczko (30:00):

Oh boy. Oh boy. This is going back a ways. This is pretty obscure. Alphaville Forever Young. When that song first came out, I thought, oh, this is cool. It's about living forever and yay. And then you listen to the lyrics and it's like, no, we fully expect the world to blow up in the next year or two, and we'll be forever young because we won't

Doug Downs (30:23):

Age well. I kind of think that song is also saying, if you could, would you want to live forever at some point? Wouldn't you kind of want to? I've had enough.

Pete Paczko (30:34):

Oh, for sure. I mean, who wants to outlive everyone they've ever known? That does not appeal to me even a little.

Tim Kelter (30:40):

Yeah, no, there's a song I really like. I've been listening to it a lot lately, and it should make me sad, but it doesn't kind of makes me joyful. And it's Marks gla, I don't know how to say his last name, and it's called More To This and Wow, it's a powerful song.

Doug Downs (31:00):

And

Tim Kelter (31:01):

It's about dying actually, but how you'd miss your loved ones and what would you do, kind of thing. But I listen to that quite a lot,

Doug Downs (31:12):

Guys. I can't thank you both enough. I really appreciate this. I hope this episode highlights the importance of, well, for physicians in the diagnosis of cancer, the system overall, that communication is so important. There's the scientific diagnosis, and then there's the human communication, which is so critically important to everything. Thank you.

Tim Kelter (31:38):

Yeah, thank you.

Doug Downs (31:39):

My pleasure.

Tim Kelter (31:40):

Thank you. Absolutely.