Who Do You Trust? Rethinking Media in a Fractured World

David Olijade (00:00):

So maybe you've never really thought about it, but there was a time when the idea of writing things down on paper was as foreign as the moon. So here's a story about how a simple idea from ancient China changed the world of communication forever. Take a listen.

Farzana Baduel (00:23):

In the second century BC in the bustling courts of the hand dynasty, a brilliant inventor named Cai Lun, changed history with a discovery that would shape the future of media and culture. Before Cai Lun, people wrote on materials like bamboo, silk, and animal skins, all cumbersome, expensive and hard to come by, but se long in his pursuit of a better way to communicate, began experimenting with the fibres of mulberry trees, bamboo, and rags. After much trial and error, he created a new affordable material that was thin, durable, and could be mass produced paper. This simple innovation revolutionized the way people shared ideas. Now, knowledge could be recorded and spread far and wide beyond the confines of royal courts and libraries. For the first time, the average person could have access to written materials, ideas that were once confined to the elite class. Philosophy, science, history could now be shared with the masses opening the door to literacy and education on a scale never before imagined.

(01:33):

And just like that paper became the medium through which people across the world could communicate record events, express ideas. It didn't happen overnight. Of course, over centuries, civilizations adapted, refined, and embraced paper as a key to progress. But with the invention of paper, the door to a new era of information had swung wide open. Now, fast forward to today, we are in the midst of a media revolution all over again. The very nature of how we consume news, entertainment information is changing right before our very own eyes. From print newspapers to digital news feeds, we're experiencing the same kind of transformation that began with sale's. Simple invention, just like our ancestors adjusted to paper, we are adjusting to this new age of media, navigating the rise of podcasts, social media and influencers. Just as they once navigated the rise of printed scrolls and books. The world of communication has always evolved. People have always adjusted a small invention from the far reaches of China, reshaped the flow of information across the globe. And we're adjusting now to the next wave of media today on stories and strategies. Turning the page on the changing landscape of media. And trust me, it's a story worth listening to.

(03:12):

My name is Farzana Baduel.

Doug Downs (03:14):

My name is Doug Downs. Just before we get started today, we've got some thank you mail Farzana. We heard on LinkedIn from Eyitemi Adebowale who sent a message quote, your podcast is a must listen for me as a professional. So thank you, Eyitemi. And we also heard from Alistair Beech, who is the interim head of communications at the University of Manchester. He says, I'm a comms professional in the UK working in higher ed. I really enjoy your PR podcast, gain lots of inspiration from your guests. My question to the University of Manchester is why is Alistair still an interim head of comms? He's clearly on it, right? Step up. And we also heard from Farhia Jabbar actually just a couple hours ago this morning, right before recording on LinkedIn. And Farhia sent us both a note. She loved our chat that we did on YouTube about gaining a more global perspective on public relations, which I find myself awkwardly apologizing for sometimes, and I shouldn't.

Farzana Baduel (04:18):

 No, absolutely not.

Doug Downs (04:19):

Right, exactly. Our guest this week is Dr. Tina Mccorkdale. Thought I'd slip that in. Tina joining from Seattle

Tina McCorkindale (04:27):

Special.

Doug Downs (04:28):

Yeah, sometimes. Now, do you prefer just Tina Mccorkdale PhD or do you prefer Dr. Tina Mccorkdale?

Tina McCorkindale (04:35):

I always put it at the end. I feel like if I put it before then, it seems a little pretentious to be honest. So just stick it at the end.

Doug Downs (04:43):

Seattle. So do you know Frazier? No, I'm kidding.

Tina McCorkindale (04:47):

I don't know Frazier personally, but yes,

Doug Downs (04:51):

Tina, you're the President and CEO of the Institute for Public Relations. IPR a leading nonprofit organization dedicated to advancing the science and practice of public relations. By the way, go to the website, sign up for the newsletter. It is chock full of good stuff every time you're an expert in communication research, particularly focused on issues such as media trust, misinformation and employee engagement within the communications industry.

Tina McCorkindale (05:19):

Yes, that's me. I'm really happy to be here. So thanks for having me.

Farzana Baduel (05:24):

So Tina, I want to pick your brains. First of all, diving straight into the decline of traditional media, I was having a look at this incredible data from your recent study that shows that younger audiences and even rural conservative individuals are increasingly turning to emerging media sources over traditional outlets. And I wanted to know, what do you think is driving the trend? Because I had an inkling about younger audiences, but I didn't understand the rural conservative individuals. That was quite new to me. So I wanted to just pull on that thread.

Tina McCorkindale (05:55):

Yeah, I thought that was really interesting as well, specifically because it doesn't seem like something that's obvious. Well, of course we're all conservative, mediocre, but it's not necessarily obvious compared to when you see the Gen Z trend, which you would expect it more. One of the reasons is just the political environment that we see it now. That's sort of the traditional media with conservatives has been sort of villainized. So they're trying to find what outlets fit their perspective and agree with their input. So you see some more alternative types of media podcast or even some social media that is more likely to be followed. It agrees with sort of their perspective.

Doug Downs (06:40):

Okay, so let's say I'm the media relations lead for my big organization. What I did 10 years ago where I went to get my company in the media or keep them out of the media, that's totally changed,

Tina McCorkindale (06:54):

Totally

Doug Downs (06:55):

Changed. Now I'm in a million different directions.

Tina McCorkindale (06:58):

I mean, yeah, and being a media relations professional is a really tough job right now because not only do we see, I mean, gosh, the rise of social media, if you're like, what are one of the biggest changes besides the internet of the past a hundred years? Absolutely social media. It's changed everything in our society, not just where we get our entertainment and content. So as a media relations professional, not only are you trying to get attention for your client or your organization where you work in traditional media sources, but you're also trying to get attention and other sources that are increasingly difficult to get attention in. Okay,

Doug Downs (07:39):

So let me follow up. If my boss is get us in the Wall Street Journal, get us in the New York Times, how do I push back on that so that no, no, no, that podcast, that PR podcast, we want to be in that. How do I prove that to them that it's time well spent?

Tina McCorkindale (07:57):

You're like, how do you get them into stories and strategies? That's

Doug Downs (08:01):

That's what I'm saying. That's it.

Tina McCorkindale (08:02):

Yeah.

(08:04):

Well, first of all, it's all about what is your objective and who is the audience you're trying to reach? And I think with the example of New York Times and Wall Street Journal, we do an annual disinformation study that asks about the trustworthiness of sources. And the New York Times is very trusted by Democrats, meaning usually we see it in the 60% that they have at least somewhat trust. But when you look at Republicans, then you're in the thirties. So while it's really great to get that great mention of your organization in the New York Times, it's not a trusted source for two thirds of half the population. So in that case, you really have to think, who is my audience? Who am I trying to target? And then think about what are the best channels to do that rather than saying, okay, let's check the box. There's the New York Times, there's the Financial Times, there's the Wall Street Journal, and that's your approach.

Farzana Baduel (08:56):

Now, Tina, if life isn't difficult enough for us prs, I've also started reading a lot about news avoidance where people actively are looking to avoid the news just because of the negativity, the polarization that's happening. And of course, as human beings, we're always wired to look for threats. And that's why news inherently has a bit of a negative bias, but you are now beginning to see, particularly with younger generations, they just don't want it. They are much more aware of their mental health and they're aware of how they consume news and how it has a negative impact. So how do you think that trend is actually impacting not only US professionals, but also impacting society at large?

Tina McCorkindale (09:36):

Oh gosh,

Farzana Baduel (09:37):

It's a big question. Such

Tina McCorkindale (09:38):

A big question, and it's scary at the same time to talk about, well, so in our disinformation study, the last one we published was at the end of 2023, and we have one coming out very soon in the next couple months. And what we found is that 40% of our respondents we survey 2200 Americans actively avoid the news because of the exact reason farana what you said. So that is problematic. Now, it'll be very interesting to see if that changes where we are in 2025 or how we are, but it's extremely problematic because an uninformed public is, it's dangerous for us and our society and our processes. And we see also, and just to add onto that is we've also seen a decline in local journalism as well. There's a great study, a great researcher, Dr. Penelope Abernathy, who studies the loss of local journalism.

(10:43):

And since 2005, we've seen one third of local newspapers close. So not only are people consuming news less, but there's also less availability of news. And one third, when you're at what we call news deserts where they don't have any access to local news, it's very problematic for people keeping informed of what's going on, not just in the world, but also in their local communities. So it's very scary and it's a very difficult problem to solve. So people are turning to other sources that like alternative media or emerging media or podcast or media even of the community or even WhatsApp groups to get their information.

Doug Downs (11:28):

So let me pull on that. I mean, earned media as a part of every comms plan, every marketing plan that I put together, and yet, if I go there, if I go Wall Street Journal, as you say, great, I get those who think the democratic frame of mind, I turn off most with a Republican frame of mind. So what do we do? Do I target Joe Rogan as well as the Wall Street Journal? Do I put my line in the sand and say, no, I'm going that way and not that way. It makes it harder.

Tina McCorkindale (12:00):

Yes, it makes it extremely hard. And then it totally depends who your audience is. I mean, Joe Rogan, the power of Joe Rogan is just insane.

Doug Downs (12:11):

It's a unicorn.

Tina McCorkindale (12:12):

It doesn't exist crazy. So when you get an endorsement, a presidential endorsement for somebody like Joe Rogan, I mean, that's game changing. And the episode that he had with President Trump had 50 million, 50 million views, not even just views.

Doug Downs (12:32):

I think audio was probably triple that.

Tina McCorkindale (12:34):

Yeah, and it's insane numbers, but it's also one of the things that we do in our studies too, is we also break down, so we say, instead of saying in traditional media, we also break it down to the types of media like M-S-N-B-C versus CNN versus New York Times versus others. They are all really different. Even we see shows like 60 Minutes that is still immensely popular on CBS with even the rural conservative crowd and local journalism. When we do our study, what we also find is that local journalism is trusted by both Democrats and Republicans. And I know if people are listening, they're like, oh my gosh, he keeps talking about political affiliation so much. But it really is, when we look at all these demographic factors, it's the political affiliation that influences what people listen to and consume the most. That's just the reality of it.

Farzana Baduel (13:29):

God, one of the things that really keeps me up at night, Tina, I'm the mother of a teenage daughter, and I love one. Yeah, you do. And what I find is I sort of look at the way I consume information in my formative years compared to her. And so I would consume Sesame Street and you had education psychologists there, and I would consume legacy media and you would have people who studied journalism and understand the rigors and the balance, making sure that they serve a purpose in society. The fourth state for society, they're very mission orientated, a lot of the journalists. And then I look at my daughter and what she consumes. So she consumes a lot of user generated content, often created by her peers. And then I think when she does go into looking at news channels, they're often not, they're created by influencers and they're not by people who've necessarily studied journalism.

(14:22):

They're not necessarily people who have joined the National Union of journalists who believe in the importance of impartiality and balance and understand that the role that informing the public has within democracy, and it's all about driven by cliques and hate, as we know, is one of the biggest form of engagement. And I just wanted to understand how can we really try and bring legacy media back when actually they're competing against sensationalists? And I said to my daughter the other day, I said, it's a little bit like, because she said, oh mom, it's so boring reading because she loves reading her conspiracy theories on TikTok. And I said, it's a little bit like broccoli versus a Mars bar. So yes, you're going to get this sugar high of these crazy conspiracy theories on TikTok, but it's not good for you and it's not good for society. But how do you sell broccoli to teenagers?

Tina McCorkindale (15:17):

Oh gosh. With a side of Mars bars. Really? I mean, I have this struggle too, but what's really funny, it's my daughter. This is really funny. My daughter, she does the same thing with TikTok, and she came my, this is serious. She came in my office and she was like, oh my gosh, they changed the name. They have changed the name of Gulf of Mexico to Gulf of America. And I was like, her name's gi. I was like, you have to stop. You have to stop watching this. Where are you getting this? And it was actually true, but what's really interesting is I would say, well, I'm just using my kids an example. They're actually very politically, they know what's going on. They follow the news, but they're not getting it, like you said, from traditional sources, it's the influencers on, so here's what you do, you take your kids' phones and then you go to TikTok and then put in your influencers and then it'll get stuck in their algorithm and then they will be forced to watch this.

(16:15):

That's the solution. No, but all kidding aside, it really is. And I think probably when I grew up on Sesame Street too, we had three channels. We didn't get alerts on our phone, but it is all consuming. And we know that teenagers, the rates of depression, especially in girls, are higher than they've ever been because of social media that is consumed. I think it's like teaching them good media literacy and media literacy practices in my, I'm in Seattle, my kids are at Seattle Public Schools. My son, my youngest son who is 11, he actually took a media literacy class for six months now. He's the only child too. But however, it is really problematic because I think as parents and adults we're also not setting good examples because we're also not consuming media that are more reliable, that are the fourth estate that are there to be the watch dogs of society.

(17:19):

I mean, there are so many things that could have gone very wrong in our society if we didn't have journalists to say, red light, here's some embezzlement that's happening in the government. This person was arrested for X, and that's what we want. We need that watchdog. But media literacy is really important. And I think I had a check moment when my youngest, I was telling him something about politics and he just said, mom, we don't to know what Buttigieg is doing every second of the day. Why are you being so, and then I realized that I also for my kids personally, that I also want them to be kids and enjoy it before they have to deal with sort of the constant inundation we get. And those 40% news avoidant people I've noticed, I've done it recently too, because it's so much in our, I get alerts. I mean today probably got ton alerts or friends texting like, oh, did you see about this signal text thread? And there's just like constant inundation everywhere. So I think for kids, it's good to teach them, but I don't think that's what's happening in the majority.

Farzana Baduel (18:32):

Do you think in the future, Tina Societies going to become more and more aware of this issue of lack of media literacy and how it impacts society and it's actually going to become a compulsory class in schools where it's a really fundamental life skill? Or do you think we're not there yet?

Tina McCorkindale (18:48):

I am not hopeful. I don't think in this climate that they would teach media literacy. I absolutely do think it should be part of the curriculum because it's not a partisan issue. It's teaching them how to be good consumers of information in an environment where there's so much and misinformation around and now with they're going to be raised, especially this next generation on ai, and that just opens up a whole nother set of issues outside of social media.

Doug Downs (19:29):

Just real quick, Tina, on the importance of having owned channels as a brand instead of renting space through earned channels or even, I think social media is a rented space because Elon Musk might not like my posts and he could take 'em down. Not to pick on Elon,

Tina McCorkindale (19:46):

I don't think Elon would like your posts Doug. I'm

Doug Downs (19:48):

Pretty down the middle.

Tina McCorkindale (19:50):

I don't know. I'm pretty straight up. I

Doug Downs (19:51):

Know how important is it to own your channels and therefore you become the point of information?

Tina McCorkindale (19:59):

I think this is one of the most important is having very strong owned channels that has content that is appealing to both your internal and external audiences, and isn't just, it's like a promotional plug for everything you do. I also would say that sponsored content is also very important and working with influencers that fit your organization and the needs of the organization because of sort of a decrease in the availability of earned media for some of the reasons we talked about loss of journalism, reporters, recovery, more beats, and this is just generalization as a whole that having sponsored content or partnerships is really important.

Farzana Baduel (20:44):

Great. So Tina, in our previous episode, our guest Sue, Heuman of Focus Public Relations left a question for you.

Sue Heuman (20:55):

So we live in crazy times. I want to know how your next guest is dealing with misinformation and disinformation in their organization.

Tina McCorkindale (21:05):

 First, I have to say thanks for that question. I could not have chosen a better question to ask myself. One of my great colleagues, Sarah Jackson on our team came up with an idea a few months ago to do a disinformation awareness month, the month of April's Disinformation Awareness Month. There's not many conflicts with April except people in the US have to get their taxes in. But disinformation awareness month is a time for people to take responsibility for what they're sharing on social media and being actively engaged and just being better consumers of information. And really, as PR people or marketers, we are responsible and our data shows it for sharing disinformation, making sure we stop the spread of disinformation. We also have a disinformation resource library.

(21:54):

All of this is available for free. Part of that features, we do an annual disinformation study with JE that we collect. We just closed in February, the next data set, which we will publish. And then we also have other great guides like how to think before you link. And you mentioned something earlier for Farzana that if it makes you mad or you're feeling emotion, that's the whole point. It's designed to make you angry, and the more angry you are, the more likely you're to share it. So we have guides for that. We also did one about what communicators need to know about election disinformation, so we shared that with resources, and so we do a lot in this area because it's only going with more sophisticated technology, more polarization, more segmentation of audiences and echo media, echo chambers, the greater the need is for this type of work.

Farzana Baduel (22:54):

I think you answered the question and some

Tina McCorkindale (22:56):

I know. I was like, what a perfect question. This is so fantastic.

Doug Downs (23:01):

Awesome. Okay, your turn. Ask a great question for the next guest.

Tina McCorkindale (23:05):

Okay, so next guest. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about our industry, what would that be and why? You have to give a really good reason why, and it has to be really good. Really good.

Doug Downs (23:22):

I think I'd probably fall back on the misinformation disinformation thing because it ends up just becoming an argument, right? Unless it's hardcore mathematical, we get on an argument about, no, no, it's real. No, that's fake. That's your perspective. That kind of thing.

Tina McCorkindale (23:37):

I don't know. Maybe they'll say every meeting you go to should have mimosas. Who knows what the response will be. That would be my suggestion. But there we go.

Farzana Baduel (23:48):

I'm more of a rose person.

Tina McCorkindale (23:50):

Rose, there we go. A wine bar. You would've a wine bar at every meeting.

Doug Downs (23:59):

Just mosey up something for everybody. Great to see you again, Tina.

Tina McCorkindale (24:02):

Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me. This was great. Thank you.

Doug Downs (24:08):

Here are the top three things we got today from Tina McCorkindale PhD. In this episode, audiences are splintering. That's number one. Young people and rural conservatives are moving toward alternative media due to distrust or shifting habits. Number two, news avoidance is rising and without stronger media literacy, society risks becoming dangerously uninformed. And number three, owned and alternative channels are essential as traditional earned media is less effective and harder to access. If you'd like to send a message to our guest, Tina McCorkindale, we've got some of her contact information in the show notes. Stories and Strategies is a co-production of Curzon Public Relations. That's you, Farzana.

Farzana Baduel (24:54):

That's me.

Doug Downs (24:55):

JGR, communications and Stories and Strategies, podcasts. If you like this episode, please leave a rating, possibly a review. Thank you to our producers, David Olijade and Emily Page. Lastly, do us a favor forward this episode to one friend. Thanks for listening.