Winning Trust When the World is Skeptical

Emily Page (00:01):
People living in the same moment can feel entirely different things. And those feelings shape how they respond to any messages a company puts into the world. Reputation is never built on what we think we are saying, but on what people in each place are ready to hear. Today we look at why the mood of a region matters more than ever, and what that means for anyone communicating across borders.

Doug Downs (00:32):
There is a scene in The Hunger Games that slips by quietly if you are not watching for it, a scene that is not about the action, not about the spectacle, but about the people in the districts. The camera lingers on their faces for only a moment, and yet that moment says more than the Capitol ever could. Each district looks at the same event, the same announcement, the same broadcast, but the eyes tell a different story. In every corner of Panem, one district leans forward with hope. Another sinks back with worry, some brace for loss. Others look for gain. The message is not changed, but the meaning has. You begin to see something deeper. These districts are not simply separated by borders, they are separated by mood, by circumstance, by the weight of whatever they have carried into that day. And once you see it, you cannot unsee it. The world feels the same pressure, yet it reacts in twelve different ways.

(01:37):
 Pull that thread a little longer and you find a truth that stretches far beyond the story. When people live in uncertainty, they look for very specific things: reassurance, fairness, stability, safety. And what they expect depends entirely on the ground beneath their own feet, not the ground beneath someone else’s. Now imagine you could understand those expectations in real life, not by guessing, not by hoping, but by listening to the way people speak, respond, and reveal what matters most in their part of the world. Imagine if you could measure how those expectations rise and fall as the world shifts around them. And that brings us to today because companies are not speaking to one world at all. They are speaking to many worlds at once, each with its own mood and meaning. Today on Stories and Strategies, how reputation is shaped by the changing climate of public feeling, or as a certain games maker might say, the odds of good reputation favor those who understand the districts. My name is Doug Downs.

Farzana Baduel (03:04):
And my name is Farzana Baduel. Our guest this week is Steve Shepperson Smith, joining today from Vodafone Group, a telecoms company operating across Africa and Europe and with partner markets around the world. Hey Steve. Hi. How are things in Vodafone?

Stephen Shepperson Smith (03:22):
Honestly, today cold. I just got back from Sharjah, which was about thirty degrees, and it is about eight degrees in London and I am very cold. But other than that, very good.

Farzana Baduel (03:33):
Good. Now Steve, you are a global communications leader at Vodafone Group, responsible for reputation strategy across Europe and Africa. You were the seventy fifth president of the United Kingdom’s Chartered Institute of Public Relations, the CIPR, back in 2023. You now sit on the board of the Global Alliance for Public Relations and Communication Management, which represents over three hundred sixty thousand practitioners, academics, and students across one hundred twenty six countries worldwide. You are someone who uses hard reputation data, real world insight, and regional nuance to show companies how to speak to the world as it really is.

Doug Downs (04:16):
And Steve, I know you are sitting on an enormous amount of reputation data across different markets globally, and this is why we really wanted to pick your brain. When you look at the last few years together, what is the big story that the data is telling you about how the mood of the world has shifted and what that now means for corporate reputation?

Stephen Shepperson Smith (04:37):
Yes, I mean, this is a subject I am really passionate about, as you both know. We started at Vodafone measuring reputation in about 2019. We now get about seventy five thousand ratings a year directly about Vodafone and its benchmarks. We work with a company called RepTrak that gets about a million ratings a year across sixty countries. So we have got, as you say, Doug, a real wealth of data around that. In terms of the big picture stuff, it is quite obvious what underpins most companies’ reputation, and that is good products and services. So if you are not good at dealing with customers, if your core product is not reliable, if your price point is wrong, you are never going to have a good reputation. And the leading reputation companies by any metric, by any company’s reputation stance, people like Lego, have that in spades. What I think has been the real learning for us is about forty percent we think of reputation is character and not that capability bit. And that is quite high. And that is things like how do these companies invest back into the community, what is their governance, how do they look after their employees. And that bit varies from market to market in terms of how important that is.

(06:08):
 So what becomes very important if you are looking to differentiate from competitors, particularly in markets like telecoms, which are quite undifferentiated, you need to get that forty percent right. You need to pick the right campaigns, the right issues to stand on, and get the messaging right in terms of what you are doing.

Farzana Baduel (06:26):
Steve, it is really interesting how you say that. Obviously consumers care about the product and the price and so forth. So the competence or capability of the organization is key, but also they are interested in all of these other areas. Do you think that was always the way, or has that been quite a recent phenomenon, and does it change the sort of issues that people care about?

Stephen Shepperson Smith (06:52):
I mean, even since 2019, we have seen a number of different eras, I mean too short to be eras really, but a number of different phases of reputation. And that is super interesting because it indicates you cannot do the same thing all the time and just think, well, we have nailed reputation. You have to keep tracking it. So back in 2019, the first time we started doing this stuff, and I am not saying this with any sense of humor at all, it was an awful thing, but we were tracking the Australian bushfires. We were on TV every night, and the data we got back, particularly from Europe and European markets, was the planet is the number one issue for us. And to some extent we have seen that ease off because the planet now tends to be a bit more of a hygiene factor, particularly for the telecoms industry. It will vary among industries, but we tend now to see the planet become a bit more important when there are moments of high news coverage. So in a month where there is COP or when there is a hurricane or a high profile incident, you will see planet move up the charts again in terms of importance. But it is not there all the time. And I think the attitude to planet politically seems to be changing at the moment, so it is a much more difficult time.

Doug Downs (08:14):
What about, we saw this I think a lot in the United States election, where labels like DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, ESG initiatives intended for the greater good, but there has been some pushback. How woke are we? What are you seeing with regard to those labels, and how should PR practitioners talk about those issues without getting tangled in politics and labels and things like that?

Stephen Shepperson Smith (08:41):
Yes, it was interesting. I was at a board meeting, as I said, in Sharjah last week, and we had people from six different continents there. And it is very clear that this was an issue that a lot of people were talking about globally. And so it has gone from something which I thought was initially an American issue to something which now everyone is talking about. Are these labels finished? Where do we go from here? And the data we have seen, RepTrak did some polling, which I thought was really interesting. What they saw was that the labels themselves have become toxic, whether that is in North America particularly, but also in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa as well now. But actually the underlying support for the ideas has not changed so much. So I think to a certain extent it is a labeling thing. And as I said, that support, about forty percent of character, is still really important. These are not easy waters to navigate through. I do not mean to make it seem simple, but I do worry that companies that are seen to sail political waves and shift away very quickly from core values will struggle with reputation longer term. Because I think what the public wants is to see people who stay the course and really stand by the values that they said they believed in to start with.

Farzana Baduel (10:25):
That is really interesting, Steve. What I wanted to pull on was a comment you made earlier about data security and how that is becoming increasingly an area that consumers are interested in. What do you think has been driving that concern, and what advice would you give to other PR professionals working within organizations to address those concerns that organizations are beginning to pick up on that sort of sentiment with their stakeholders?

Stephen Shepperson Smith (10:57):
Yes. I mean, what is driving the concern? We have got some very high profile global wars, Ukraine, the Middle East. We are living in what feels like a less safe world at the moment. We are also living in a far more polarized world, so I do not want to just drive us to make America great again, but actually every country now is looking at, or seemingly every country now is looking at, more isolated focus and making sure they look after their own people first. Now, that is not a political comment, it is just the reality whether you are in France or the United Kingdom or Germany or the United States. So that is what I think is driving it. From a commerce perspective, I would probably suggest two things. The first is if your company is contributing in any way toward economic security, toward the security of the country, then you need to emphasize that in communications. It is a very difficult message to put out because I think with security communications, there is a danger you put a target on your back and someone goes out to prove you wrong.

(12:12):
 But I think equally there is plenty you can say in terms of, particularly our industry, where we can talk about infrastructure, we can talk about commitment to a country, we can talk about how we make sure our customers are safe. That is all fine. The other thing is I think the social contract between companies and individuals is changing. Ten years ago, companies would have been expected to look after customers and just keep them safe, simple as that. Transactional. I buy from you, you keep me safe, there is never a data leak. And I think that has changed actually. I think there is an acceptance that data breaches happen, that other physical security breaches happen, and it cannot just be the companies that are putting all the effort into security. Customers need to protect themselves as well. So I think there is an openness now to have communication with your customers about how they, for example, use two factor identification. I think the banks have been really good on that, how to protect yourself when you are talking to the bank, how to make sure you are not involved in fraudulent transactions.

(13:12):
 And also I think the delivery companies have been less good at this, how you secure yourself at home. There is a lot of stuff around how many parcels get taken from people’s doorsteps. There is a whole industry around that. And I do not think the delivery companies have been very good yet at saying, actually, it is down to you. You need to find a safe place, buy a lockbox, for heaven’s sake, find somewhere that our delivery drivers can go and make sure your stuff is safe. That is not down to Amazon or any other company to do. So I think it is those two things really. First, think about what your security narrative is and how to do that in a nuanced way. And second, open that dialogue with your customers and use it as a way to enhance your customer communications.

Farzana Baduel (14:07):
Do you think, Steve, that AI is actually increasing the risk of security breaches because now scammers, for instance, have communications that can pass off as professional grade in a way that they did not have before? They can do video production, graphic design, without having to pay professionals to do it. And do you think that in the past we would see an oddly worded email, a poorly drafted email, or the branding not quite right and slightly unprofessional, and then that would raise alarm bells and we would identify that as a scam email? Do you think actually now it is going to become a lot more difficult for consumers to ascertain? And what can companies do to raise the alarm?

Stephen Shepperson Smith (14:56):
Yes, I mean, of course. And look, I am not a security expert. I would not feel comfortable giving security advice, but I think it is the nature of the fact that it is a more complicated world and a more risky world, which is why that social contract is changing really between companies and consumers. And where I think consumers are more open now, and we see that particularly in Africa actually. It is developing in Europe, but particularly in Africa, they are very open to having a dialogue with the company. So the company saying to them, you need to look after yourself first and foremost. We will tell you how to look after yourself, but you need to meet us halfway on this. And I think that is the thing that is shifting. And yes, with AI, it is going to get harder and harder. So I think if your company is not already having that grown up conversation with customers, they need to start very quickly.

Doug Downs (15:54):
Steve, you mentioned about sixty percent of this is make great stuff or provide great service at the right price, whether that is the lowest price or whatever it is, then it is that other forty percent. That is the sandbox that we play in. And to me, it sounds like the approach is be someone just like me, be one of us, whatever us or just like me means. How do you do that when, as you say, around the world, we are going through a period of entrenchment where in France, we want France first, or in the United Kingdom, we want the United Kingdom first, or in the United States, America first? How do I be just like you when we are sort of building these walls in our minds?

Stephen Shepperson Smith (16:38):
Yes, I think that is the benefit of reputation tracking. That is why I am so passionate about it. You have to go out to each country and understand the nuance of what it is the consumers in that country want. And what we see in the markets that we operate is there is a balance. It varies per market between the level of very local support they want and the level of international activity that they want to see. So there is a balance between the extent to which they want multinational brands that are protecting the world and doing great things with wildlife in Africa or the environment, and the extent to which they want brands that are solving very local problems and supporting beach cleans or sponsoring major tournaments, and so on. And that is why, particularly in this more polarized world, you have to do as much research as possible.

(17:50):
 The thing that I am really passionate about is that I think where the industry relies too much is on gut feel and experience and hope. And I listened to your interview with Richard Bagger recently talking about vanity metrics, and there is a lot of guesswork in this industry. We have small budgets. We have to make an impact to differentiate our companies. You have to spend money on research to understand what those issues are, what the wedge issues are that are going to make a difference, and what language you need behind the campaigns that will make a change. So if I use an example from my industry, we look at young people and smartphones at the moment. Clearly, I do not need to do any research to say that is clearly a political issue. Australia just banned them. So it is not just Australia; every country is looking at the impact of smartphones and young people. Is it an issue for the general public? Of course it is. You do not need to spend much time looking at newspapers or Reddit or Mumsnet to understand there is a lot of concern among young people and among parents about this. What I do not understand, and I am not going to provide an answer to this, but what I do not understand is whether that is the right issue for our company to address.

(19:24):
 Where is the public? Where are political stakeholders on this? Do they want government to solve it? Do they want telecom operators to solve it? Do they want app providers to solve it? Do they want parents to solve it? Do they want young people to solve it? What is the answer to that? And it is only by understanding that you can know if it is the right issue for our company to campaign on. And if it is the right issue, where should we be pitching our support? And so with these medium and long term issues, I think that is really what we need to get better at—understanding if this is our fight, and to what extent we should be a leader or a follower, and what our activity should be to make sure we are in line, which is good governance and conduct, or whether it is an opportunity for us to differentiate from competitors and do something that people really value and that really makes a difference to society. Find the goalposts, kick the ball.

Doug Downs (20:37):
Simple. Steve, thanks for your time today.

Stephen Shepperson Smith (20:40):
That is my absolute pleasure.

Doug Downs (20:42):
Oh, hey Steve, in our last episode, our guest, your pal Andy West, did not know you were the guest on this show, but he left one question for you.

Andy West (20:50):
Yes, I would like to ask the next guest: There has been a recent Chartered Institute of Public Relations report into ageism, which highlighted systemic bias against older practitioners in the industry. What three things would you implement to tackle ageism in the PR industry?

Stephen Shepperson Smith (21:13):
Okay, so first of all, I would like to tell you that Andy West is dead to me. Well, let me have a go at what is a very difficult question and a very good question. Sorry. Thank you, Andy. It is a very good question. Point one, I think companies need to recognize that people have energy for a lot longer. So I think it is a really permanent question. I am in my forties, and I think fifties is the new forty, thirties the new twenty, and so on. I think there needs to be recognition that people can be valuable for longer and have energy for longer, and the old cutoffs are wrong and need to be rethought. Secondly, and look, I am absolutely the wrong person to be advocating for this, but I think companies are just starting now to think about the way they deal with menopause, and there is a lot more work that can be done to support women through menopause to make sure they can continue being as unaffected as possible by the process.

(22:25):
 And also that their career can carry on accelerating beyond that. And I think that is very much the next diversity and inclusion area that companies are only starting to look at now, and you see a lot more in sports around that. And then thirdly, I think companies also need to recognize that when we talk about lifelong learning, we really need to think about lifelong. Just because you are in your forties or fifties or sixties does not mean you stop learning new skills. At the same time, I am thinking about my fifties and sixties and thinking about portfolio careers, and this might be the last massive job I have, but I need to be adaptable as well and open to learning new skills, taking different roles, and being flexible about where my role and my contribution to Team Vodafone will change as I get older. I am a huge soccer fan, and I think about that analogy that the center forwards with the longest careers adapt their game as they get older. They do not just barrel around the pitch anymore. They become much better at positional awareness. Some move back into midfield or even into roles in front of the defense. If you want a long career, you need to be able to adapt as you get older, but also hope that the team can see the continued value you can provide as you get further along in your career.

Doug Downs (24:09):
You did great. Andy owes you one pint.

Stephen Shepperson Smith (24:12):
Actually, Andy owes me more than one pint.

Doug Downs (24:14):
Your turn, Steve. What question would you like to leave behind for the next guest?

Stephen Shepperson Smith (24:19):
Hey, it is almost 2026. I would like to ask, what are your New Year’s resolutions?

Doug Downs (24:26):
Okay. Do you do resolutions yourself? Still, a lot of people are kind of fading out of that.

Stephen Shepperson Smith (24:31):
I have many New Year’s resolutions every year: drink less tea, get fitter, finally achieve those work goals, achieve inbox zero. But all of these things are easier said than done.

Doug Downs (24:46):
Start a podcast. That should be on everybody’s list.

Stephen Shepperson Smith (24:50):
Definitely. But it is definitely a time of year to reflect on things and think about strategy for the next year. So yes.

Farzana Baduel (24:57):
Thank you so much.

Stephen Shepperson Smith (24:58):
Thanks again, Steve. That is my absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me on this show.

Farzana Baduel (25:03):
So here are the top three things we got today from Steve Shepperson Smith. Number one, reputation has two engines. Sixty percent comes from product and service quality, and around forty percent comes from values and character. Number two, public priorities shift fast. Climate, COVID, cost of living, and security have each taken the top spot, so companies must track sentiment constantly. And number three, security drives trust. Now people want reassurance about safety, and companies must show how they protect customers and teach customers to protect themselves.

Doug Downs (25:43):
The most interesting piece there is the shifting priorities, because I have always kind of worked under the philosophy that values really do not change very fast, but things are moving awfully fast these days. If you would like to send a message to our guest, Steve Shepperson Smith, we have got his contact information in the show notes. Stories and Strategies is a co production of Curzon Public Relations and Stories and Strategies Podcasts. If you like this episode, I have got something weird for you to do just because Steve from Vodafone was here. If you like this podcast, just talk to your phone and say, I really like the Stories and Strategies Podcast, and see if magically some ad or something on Instagram does not pop up in your feed. I just want to give that a try. Thank you to our producers, Emily Page and David Olajide. Steve is not going to like that. Lastly, do us a favor and forward this episode to one friend. Thanks for listening.