WOMEN Can Reach PR Executive Leadership Roles Faster Than You Think!

Doug Downs (00:11):

It was 1967 and the New York Stock Exchange was no place for a woman. At least that's what everyone had told her. Men ruled the floor. The tradition ran deep. But Muriel Siebert wasn't interested in following tradition. She was interested in breaking it. Born and raised in Cleveland, Ohio. Mickie as her friends called her, learned early on that she'd need to be tough to make it. She didn't come from wealth or privilege, just a family with a small plumbing supply business and enough grit to give her the drive to push forward. When the odds were stacked high after college, Mickie took off for Wall Street with barely $500 in her pocket, no degree in finance, but she had something worth far more than that determination. She became a researcher, and as the only woman in her firm, she quickly learned to hold her own. But being an employee wasn't enough for Mickie.

(01:04):

She wanted to play the game at the highest level, and to do that, she'd need a seat on the New York Stock Exchange. In honor. No woman had achieved in its nearly 175 year history, the price $445,000 in 1967, but that wasn't all. She needed Sponsorship from two male members, an endorsement that no woman had ever dared to ask for, let alone received. She was laughed at, turned away and doubted. But after months of effort, she got her sponsors and secured the funds. On December 28th, 1967, Muriel Seabert walked onto the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, the first and only woman among 1,365 men. But Mickie didn't just want a seat at the table. She wanted to open doors for others. She pushed companies to hire more women and advocated for fair pay. She even took a leave from her firm to serve as New York's superintendent of banks in 1977, making sure the state's banks didn't fail under her watch. When asked later in life why she'd chosen such a challenging path, Mickie simply smiled and said, I wanted to see what I could do today. On stories and strategies, Muriel Siebert proved women could make it on the trading floor in public relations. It's time they made it on the top floor.

(02:43):

My name is Doug Downs. Off the top, we played R-E-S-P-E-C-T, Aretha's Big hit from 1967, same year that Muriel Siebert was breaking one glass ceiling, at least originally written a couple years earlier by Otis Redding. Then Aretha came along and made it an even bigger hit and really kind of her signature song. Just as we get started, I want to thank Florian who left a message on Spotify for creators. Spotify for podcasters has now become Spotify for creators with the title. Wonderful episode. She was talking about, he or she was talking about the human element of crisis management with our guest Rod Cartwright. So Florian, thank you so much for leaving that message. My guest this week is Dr. Karen Hills Pruden. Karen, where are you joining us today? From

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (03:30):

I am joining you from the state of lovers. Virginias for Lovers. Virginia Beach. Virginia.

Doug Downs (03:37):

Virginia. I was in DC, so not Virginia, but that's nearby. I was in DC in

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (03:43):

August. Beautiful. It's our neighbor. DC is our neighbor.

Doug Downs (03:46):

Is it starting to cool off a little bit? In Virginia, the leaves are starting to turn

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (03:51):

Just when the sun goes down. It is about 67 60 seventies during the day. So typical fall weather, but it gets winterish when the sun goes down.

Doug Downs (04:04):

That's all good. Karen, you're the founder of Prudent Global Business Solutions Consulting, dedicated to advancing the careers of high performing leaders and aspiring high performing leaders through a comprehensive and strategic approach. You've authored and co-authored more than 30 books, most of them bestsellers, and you're a graduate of Yale's Women's Leadership Program, Cornell's Women's Entrepreneurship Program, and Global Speakers University. It's great to have you on the podcast.

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (04:32):

Thank you. I'm excited about being here.

Doug Downs (04:34):

Well, and you emphasize the importance of amplifying your value at the table through metrics, which I love that, right? We live in a kind of a numbers world for women aspiring to executive roles in public relations. What are some of the key metrics that they should focus on to make a powerful case for their contributions?

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (04:56):

Absolutely. So metrics should always be tied to the organizational goals. So for women who are NPR, you have to be very mindful of what are the organizational goals and then where is the organization spending its resources, particularly as financial resources and its time resources. Those are the two most valuable. And so if there's an advertising, a marketing budget, if you are attending in-person events on behalf of the organization, then you need a return on that investment for your advertising and marketing budget. If you have websites or anything virtual, then you have the opportunity to look at that traffic and ensure that that traffic is meeting the needs of the investment. And so if you aren't tying into that traffic, the numbers, the people who are clicking, and then the conversion numbers, who's clicking, and then who's converting to your particular customer or client, and those into what you're expected forecasted organizational goals are, then as a PR person, then you don't have anything solid to say that our PR and marketing efforts are contributing to the organizational goals. And so those, it's a ton of metrics that are associated with branding and marketing, but all of them funnel up to the organizational goals.

Doug Downs (06:21):

Absolutely. Does it get hard sometimes to demonstrate it to the c-suite? Sometimes the metrics, I attend an event and there may not be any ROI for a year, and maybe it's someone I hear from as a result of attending that meeting. I don't know. Or maybe it just enriches our reputation and there's no direct, seemingly direct ROI. Does it get hard to show it to the c-suite? Sometimes.

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (06:48):

Not necessarily hard. As long as you can explain, there are some metrics where you're going to have immediate result. Like if someone clicks on your website, you immediately can see that they clicked on your website. You may not be able to tie in the click on the website to the actual sale immediately, but you can see that they clicked on the website and an example that you gave. Sometimes we have to groom and cultivate a relationship with potential customers. And so they may come across us or they may I call it the honeymoon phase, where they may sit back and watch you watch what your business does, watch the website, watch what you're branding, what you're offering, make sure that you're going to be around for a while because a lot of businesses go out of business

(07:32):

And so they watch you for a while. And so you don't have any way to gauge that honeymoon phase until an actual hit and conversion and sale is made. And so to the c-suite, you can talk about the immediate return on investment and then you talk about the grooming phase, but you have to be able to prove that there's some type of ongoing action between yourself and possible customers or clients by way of some type of metrics to show that you're out there doing the work and that people are responding to that work. And then of course, the end result is the sale. So not difficult to explain, but you have to talk about the different type of metrics. You have the immediate metrics, and then you have delayed metrics. But they all funnel up into the organizational goals.

Doug Downs (08:20):

And I mean, take this podcast for example, you reached out to me, not just for our podcast, but for a client of ours, you're going through that period where you're doing podcast interviews, enriching yourself as a leader, which I saw clearly in the email, but how do you even tie all in? You and I are going to talk for 20, 25 minutes. You've probably done a half hour of get ready for what this guy's going to ask me type of stuff. That's an hour of your time. How do you direct eye that hour of your time back to your organization's goals of which you are the leader? But imagine for a second you weren't.

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (08:56):

Well, if I wanted to directly tie it into, I did not know you prior to my reaching out to you. So you are at least one connection. And I subsequently made multiple connections because I also was on the other podcast. And so that is a direct metrics that is tied to my action. Others are not as clean as you mentioned. It may take a while. I may not even know that one of your listeners who are listening to me now may reach out to me a year from now, six months from now or next month. I may not know that it's because of this podcast until they let me know. But I will ask because I ask all of my clients, how did you hear about me? Because a lot of my business is from referral, and so I have to ask, how did you hear about me?

(09:47):

And then when they say I heard about you from stories and strategies, then that's how we can tie it immediately into in terms of those delayed metrics. So you have to ask the question, you have to compile the information, and you have to keep the data, and you have to make sure that the data is accurate and correct. The biggest part is collecting the data. A lot of entrepreneurs don't collect the data, and some people collect the data and didn't do nothing with it, but you have to be able to tie it to each other. And for me, tying it to each other is asking individuals, how did you hear about me? And then that way I can tie the investment with the subsequent client or customer relationship.

Doug Downs (10:30):

Expand for me on the different kinds of analytics that any aspiring leader, and in this case we're talking about women, the different kinds of analytics. You mentioned impressions, you mentioned callbacks, anything that hits an expressed goal for the business, and how familiar should women become in analytics as they pursue those higher goals?

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (10:55):

Very quantitative data has no emotion. And a lot of times qualitative data opinions that aren't based in fact, aren't based in data, have a little bit of emotion in it. And so when you really get down to those deep conversations about whether or not an organization should invest funds at a certain point, people want to see critical and direct data that says that this is where we should direct our money or continue to direct our money. And so a lot of times, quantitative data, those exact numbers, those exact reports, one, you have to collect it and you have to collect it, right? There's different types of data. As you mentioned, a lot of companies collect data, but not everyone is putting the metrics into the system. So that's one issue because now you only have half of your information into the system. It's going to spit out data based on half of the information.

(11:51):

Some of the systems are outdated, they aren't talking to one another. Again, now you have incomplete data. So some of the data that one needs to collect, they all tie into three different areas. You have your talent data, you have your processes, data, meaning process efficiency, and then you have your systems data. Your talent data is do you have the right people and the right jobs at the right time doing the right things. And you can base that on your productivity and you tie that into what it is that you say that you were going to do based on the talent that you have on deck, and are they actually doing that? So those productivity reports that you may have, depending on your particular industry, you have your process efficiency data that every leader should consider. Are we churning out whatever the product or the service is in the time that we said that we were going to churn it out?

(12:42):

If so, great, how can we amplify that, accelerate that? If not, what are the barriers for us meeting our quarterly goals, our bi-annual goals and our annual goals? And then you also have your system data. Are we using our systems to the full capacity that we expect it to? Is it doing what it is? We hired it for a particular reason and are we utilizing it for that? So those three areas, processes, systems, and talent is a slew of reports that wine could manage and review on an ongoing basis to ensure that those three areas we are operating the way that we thought we will operate for this calendar year or this fiscal year.

Doug Downs (13:27):

See, I love that. And in my fantasy world, we live in a world of pure meritocracy and the numbers can kind of explain it. We don't live in a world of meritocracy. So let me just ask you point blank. I believe it is harder for women in PR where they are two thirds of the workforce. I believe it's harder for women to get to the C-suite and someone can challenge me if they want to. Why is it harder in a field dominated by women in terms of overall participation for them to get to the C-suite? Simple question. I know the answer. Is that horribly complex?

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (14:05):

Correct. Complex because you don't know the particular barriers for any particular woman. So I'm going to speak in very generalizations. Some barriers are self-imposed barriers. Again, not knowing our analytics, not being an expert at something because experts are highly regarded in fields as opposed to generalists, not cultivating relationships up and down the chain and outside of the chain

(14:33):

With our vendors and our customers, everyone, as you become a leader, you are more vulnerable in terms of your vulnerability because you are not doing the work. And so you have to cultivate relationships with people up and down the chain from your frontline employee to your vendors and possible vendors because if one vendor fall off and you immediately need to pick up another vendor, then you should already have a relationship with the next vendor. And so those things make it difficult because some women may focus on relationships only relationships, which is fine, but now you are missing a piece of the puzzle in terms of you don't have that specialty that is needed for an organization to call on you when they're in trouble. When an organization want to upgrade systems, then they call a system person. If they're having problems with finance, then the person that they hire or they tap into is the person who's an expert in finances.

(15:32):

People do not tell individuals a lot of times what they need to do to convert from a manager to a leader. As a leader, I've been in senior leadership, I'm planning three to five years down the road. As a manager, I was concerned about what we were doing this week. If no one tells you what you need to focus on for leadership, how do you know that when it's time for you to go through that process that you need to even speak differently, look at things differently. My competitors are always going to be brick and mortar and online. We live in a world that is very online now. You can almost get anything online, and also you probably can get it the next day if you are in the product services. And so you need to be aware of who are your competitors, brick and mortar and online.

(16:19):

Sometimes if women haven't talked to anyone, these are the things you need to consider. These are the things you need to focus on. We have barriers to our understanding of what leadership is. I myself, I had a 350 hour investment that I helped me get to where I am. About 15 years ago. I wanted to move from middle management to senior leadership. I didn't know any women in senior leadership, but I had three succession bad bosses. I'm just going to say bad bosses. And I felt like I could do it differently, but I knew that I didn't know all I needed to know to start the process. So I went up on LinkedIn and did some research and looked for a woman leader who was a vice president who looked like me, African-American, who had been a vice president for at least 10 years. Sent a copy of my resume along with a direct message, and this was 15 years ago and asked her to be my mentor. She said, yes for $350 an hour. Now, 15 years ago, I wasn't rolling like that.

(17:31):

I wasn't rolling like that. But what do you do when someone has walked the walk of your ultimate goal? And so I negotiated with her for one hour a month for one year, one, $350 a month for one year. She helped me identify my unique selling proposition, which is my USP, which is what makes you different from everyone with the same title, similar education, and similar experience. Well, my unique selling proposition against my peers was that because I had worked in human resources, I can create a metrics from indirect revenue generating departments because we don't directly sell. It is hard to articulate our value at the table that something that is quantifiable and validated. And I was able to do that because my career in hr. And so she was like, that is your golden juice there. And so she said, you need to be working with hr, it PR marketing, all of those firms that don't indirectly sell, help them create a formula that can be validated and repeated over and over and over again. When she helped me identify that I worked with her for a year, I was invited to apply for a senior leadership position. And for the last 15 years I've been in senior leadership based on just continually professionally developing myself. But I hired a mentor to fill in the gaps of what my understanding was in terms of moving from management to leadership. And a lot of women leaders don't do that. You have to invest in yourself.

Doug Downs (19:21):

Let me repeat that back in my own words. I think that's the golden juice as you say it. First, understand yourself, understand your unique selling proposition. I would call it understand your personal niche

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (19:33):

Because

Doug Downs (19:34):

I think the riches are in the niches, right?

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (19:36):

And

Doug Downs (19:37):

Leverage that and work that with your relationships even because some of the relationships you're going to have, it may be the same people as somebody else, but the relationships are different. So use that.

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (19:50):

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Exactly.

Doug Downs (19:54):

Okay, last question. I've kind of always had a life approach myself that I'm not learning anything if I'm talking, but you make a really good counterpoint that I haven't heard quite expressed this way. Silence is not a superpower. So how do we self-advocate, and what are some common situations where women should speak up to position themselves as leaders?

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (20:18):

Leaders? Absolutely. So that phrase just rolled across my tongue about 10 years ago, just me being a leader of women managers who felt the need to be humble at the table, who felt the need to not recite their wins. How will people know your wins if they weren't standing there beside you if you do not articulate your wins? And so helping these women leaders, not redirect, but helping them to understand that it is not bragging to be able to articulate the value that you contribute to any organization. It is showing them the possibilities, and you can even move it, add to it to next steps about what to do for the future. But it is showing them the possibilities of what we've done as an organization, what I've done as an individual. And so what better mouthpiece for that than you? Yeah, we can have sponsors and we can have ambassadors, but you fill in the gaps.

(21:34):

We are in a wisdom economy now. And what I mean by that is because of ai, people can churn out a whole lot of data. But what they don't have is the wisdom of how to apply the data and what can happen. What if things doesn't work the way that the business plan turns out for ai. So it's the wisdom economy that is going to help people set themselves out from that. And so as women leaders, we need to be constantly articulating what are we doing to help contribute the organizational goals? Because believe it or not, people are so busy churning, they're not keeping up with your wind.

Doug Downs (22:16):

No,

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (22:19):

It's, it's up to you to keep putting it in the forefront and tying it into possible organizational goals that we should be doing that maybe we're not doing or that are currently on deck for the five-year plan. And so that's what I mean by silence is not your superpower. It is not bragging. I find that I work a lot with women. Leaders are too humble. And so if you tie it into organizational goals or what the organization should be doing, you are doing what you should be doing as a leader, which is you're helping the organization determine next steps for sustainability and competitiveness within their market.

Doug Downs (23:00):

Agreed. I think men are at least a bit more willing to proof of performance than women likely are. That's a sweeping general statement. I agree with you.

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (23:10):

Yes. And I've worked with some men. I know what they did in kindergarten.

Doug Downs (23:15):

Yeah, I bet you

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (23:16):

Did. Because they share it. So there's a fine line between that. But let's get in the middle. Let's not be on the extreme end of either one of those situations.

Doug Downs (23:28):

And read the room.

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (23:29):

Yes,

Doug Downs (23:29):

Read the room. Karen, in our previous episode, our guest, Matt Creighton of tics left a question for you.

Matt Krayton (23:38):

Over the next five years, where do you see PR firm or PR practitioner business models going? Right? Where is our business going? Given that again, AI has become so prevalent. We have all of these access to all of these different tools, and the demands on the profession have shifted quite a bit, given that, again, legacy media is not quite what it used to be. So I wonder, and I'd be curious to see what your next guest has to say about how they feel business models in the PR space will adapt to these new realities or continue to adapt to these new realities over the next five years.

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (24:22):

I think what I just touched on a little bit is the wisdom economy. It is the backstory to all of the things that can be churned out through ai. AI turns out documents, but it doesn't give you the what if It doesn't give you the tried and the tested. It doesn't give you the pros and the cons of doing such actions. And so us as leaders, as PR professionals, individuals, we can talk about the what if. If we invest a couple of million dollars in just social media without doing magazine advertising, TV advertising, radio advertising, what are the cons of excluding those forms of media and putting all of our dollars in this form of media. That is what wisdom economy is all about. The people who have lived those actions, adding to those things that could possibly be generated with ai, which are the plans, it is the live experiences and knowledge of individuals who have lived those plans that AI can kick out, and I think that is the big difference.

Doug Downs (25:34):

Perfect. What question would you like to leave behind for our next guest,

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (25:39):

Actually, since I am an analytics person, so my question is, what role do you see analytics in transforming the PR business in the next five years?

Doug Downs (25:53):

That could be a really big question. Off the top of my head. We're going to have so much data, and I suppose at least part of the answer will be the human capacity to know what data to listen to and what data not to listen to. I'll give you an example. This year's US election, those comms rooms, the folks who ran the campaigns for Kamala and the campaign for Donald Trump, how much data did they have every day? Tons. One camp was able evidently to pick out the data points and express action in a way that was more successful than the other camp.

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (26:34):

Yep.

Doug Downs (26:35):

That stands out to me. Great question.

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (26:38):

I love analytics. It's all about the numbers, the quantitative data. I love qualitative data too, but

Doug Downs (26:44):

It

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (26:44):

Has to be married to the quantitative data.

Doug Downs (26:47):

I like when they agree because when the qualitative disagrees with the quantitative,

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (26:52):

Somebody's mad. Somebody's mad.

Doug Downs (26:54):

That's right. Half the time the quantitative is just wrong. And then I realized later, no, it wasn't necessary. I really appreciate your time today, Karen. It's great spending time with you.

Dr Karen Hills Pruden (27:05):

Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me. This was fun.

Doug Downs (27:10):

So here are the top three things I got from Karen Hills Pruden on women achieving leadership positions in public relations, metrics driven advocacy. Karen emphasizes the importance of aligning metrics with organizational goals. Women in PR should focus on demonstrating ROI through quantifiable metrics such as website traffic, conversion rates, and the effectiveness of advertising and marketing. Highlighting both immediate and delayed metrics strengthens the case for how PR contributes to business success. Number two, understanding and leveraging your unique selling proposition. Your USP Karen shared her personal journey of identifying her USP as a leader, which was her ability to create measurable metrics for non-revenue generating departments like PR. She encourages women to define their unique strengths, and that will set you apart. Number three, active self-advocacy. Silence is not a superpower, and women must articulate their wins to position themselves as leaders. Show 'em and then tell 'em what you showed them. If you'd like to send a message to my guest, Karen Hills Pruden, we've got her contact information in the show notes. Stories and strategies is a co-production of JGR Communications and Stories and Strategies podcasts. Big thanks to our producer, Emily Page, and please do us one last favor forward this episode to one friend. Thanks for listening.